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Blogging The Boys

Cowboys 2012 Draft: How Good Is Dallas At Assembling A Draft Board, Part IV: The 2010 Board

In the first three parts of this series, I looked at last year's "little board," assembled from players invited to Valley Ranch for "Dallas Day," then zeroed in on the offensive players from that board (part II), followed by the defensive guys (Part III). In doing so, I confirmed what people with access to Valley Ranch have been saying for years: that Dallas Director of Pro Personnel Tom Ciskowski (and, before him, Jeff Ireland) do a masterful job identifying potential Cowboys and building a draft board.

Still, as I admitted at the time, those conclusions are based on a great deal of conjecture, as we cannot know exactly where each of the players was drafted; the "little board" upon which all of this is based is largely speculative. For example, did the Cowboys see DeMarco Murray as a third rounder? A second rounder? If so, how high a second rounder? In short, its difficult to ascertain how accurately the Cowboys judged 2011's incoming talent without knowing exactly where they were slotted.

Which brings me to the famous "leaked" 2010 draft board. Immediately after that draft, you may recall, several intrepid BTBers, among them JBell523, Theebs, Cowboysaficionado, 24Hz and Requiem, managed to piece together the Dallas War Room's big board from video that had been taken during the draft. From this information, they were able to assemble an almost complete version of the Cowboys board (hit the above link and scroll down), thus providing us with a cornucopia of highly valuable information. Most importantly, by comparing where the Cowboys slotted certain players versus where they were actually drafted, it give us some idea of how Ciskowski and his team of scouts stack up against the rest of the league as talent evaluators.

Some cool stuff after the jump...

Star-divide

For the purposes of this exercise, I have focused on players who Dallas seemed either to over- or underrate relative to the rest of the league. I have created two tables, one for guys who were drafted two or more rounds before the Cowboys thought they should go (according to their board) and another for those selected two or more rounds later than where Dallas slotted them. In looking at their performances after two years in the league, I'm hoping to determine whether, for example, the Cowboys under-rated certain players or some other team overrated them.

Without further ado, let's take a look at the first group, the guys drafted earlier than they appeared on Dallas' board:

Team and Round (pick #) Position on Dallas’ Board (round, slot) Games Played/ Starts Position on Depth Chart (as of today)

PFF Grades 2010/ 2011

Total Snaps 2010/ 2011
Two year AV 2010/ 2011
Anthony Davis SF 1 (11) 3, 2 32/ 32 1 (RT) -28.1/-17.1 1011/ 1164 7/ 6
Ryan Matthews SD 1 (12) 2, 12 26/ 22 1 (RB) -1.3/ 10.5 291/ 532 6/ 13
Patrick Robinson NO 1 (32) 3, 4 26/ 11 2 (RCB) 0.2/ 1.4 289/ 833 2/ 4
Rodger Saffold STL 2 (33) 3. 17 25/ 25 1 (LT) -12.4/-14.7 1068/ 618 6/ 2
Zane Beadles DEN 2 (45) 3, 26 32/ 30 1 (RG) -8.6/ -25.7 949/ 1215 6/ 5
Javier Arenas KC 2 (50) 4, 2 31/ 3 2 (RCB) 2.2/ 3.4 516/ 381 2/ 0
Vladimir Ducasse NYJ 2 (61) 4, 3 18/ ?? 2 (RT) Also TE? 2.9/ -5.6 70/ 97 0/1
Torell Troupe BUF 2 (41) 4, 8 20/ 2 3 (LDT) -6.3/ -3.4 303/ 94 2/ 0
Linval Joseph NYG 2 (46) 4, 12 22/ 15 1 (LDT) -1.8/ 1.1 63/ 614 1/ 6
Ben Tate HOU 2 (58) 4, 18 15/ 2 2 (HB) NA/ 8.3 NA/ 333 0/ 7
T.J. Ward CLEV 2 (38) 4, 23 24/ 24 1 (SS) -0.1/ 5.6 1077/ 478 7/ 0
Jason Worilds PIT 2 (52) 4, 27 26/ 7 2 (ROLB) 2.2/ 4.5 43/ 521 2/ 5
Jared Veldheer OAK 3 (69) 6, 1 32/ 27 1 (LT) -27.2/ 5.9 916/ 1097 6/ 8
Mike Kafka PHI 4 (122) 7, 3 4/ 0 3 (QB) NA/ -0.6 NA/ 33 0/ 0

Some thoughts: Several of the players on this list haven't seen the field much. This might mean that they are on the verge of becoming busts (like Vlad Ducasse, who couldn't unseat the mediocre Wayne Hunter), or simply that they have been playing behind a solid veteran starter and will soon get a chance to shine (as is Patrick Robinson's likely path). Given that so many of these guys were drafted in the "premium" rounds, however, the fact that more of them haven't acquitted themselves better suggests that, as a collective group, the Cowboys were more right than wrong about them.

One subgroup here that seems to have logged a goodly amount of games and starts are the offensive linemen. Yet, a closer look suggests that its not necessarily because they have played well. For example, Anthony Davis, who received a third round grade from the Cowboys, immediately took over at right tackle for a good 49er offensive line. But his AV is only so-so and his PFF grades are abysmal; in fact, he received the offense's worst grade in 2010 and was in the bottom three last season. The same could be said of Denver OG Zane Beadles and Rams and Raiders left tackles Roger Saffold and Jared Veldheer. All three were O-linemen of interest to Cowboys fans who Ciskowski and Co. seemed to have rated lower than expected. Thus far, they have all played a lot; however, the early indications are that they haven't necessarily played well.

On the other hand, two players from this list that Dallas seems to have underrated were Oregon Safety T. J. Ward and Virginia Tech DE/ OLB Jason Worilds. They saw both players as fourth-rounders, yet both have prospered in a similar defensive scheme (both Cleveland and Pittsburgh run 3-4s; Ward played for current Cowboys DC Rob Ryan in 2010). Worilds in particular seems poised on the cusp of excellence--if only he can squeeze in more snaps with Lamar Woodley and James Harrison manning the Steelers' OLB positions.

Alright, now lets take a look at the players that Dallas appeared to value more highly that the rest of the league in April 2010:

Team and Round (pick #) Position on Dallas’ Board (round, slot) Games Played/ Starts Position on Depth Chart (as of today) PFF Grades 2010/ 2011 Total Snaps 2010/ 2011 Two year AV 2010/ 2011
Sean Lee DAL 2 (55) 1, 14 29/ 15 1 (RILB) 9.4/ 13.7 169/ 863 2/ 8
NaVorro Bowman SF 3 (91) 1, 20 32/ 17 1 (ILB) 3.7/ 32.2 217/ 1012 2. 19
Morgan Burnett GB 3 (71) 2, 7 20/ 20 1 (SS) -2.1/ -0.6 200/ 1166 2/ 5
Brandon Ghee CIN 3 (96) 2, 15 13/ 0 2 (LCB) -0.9/ 0.0 11/ 2 0/ 1
Joe McKnight NYJ 4 (112) 3, 6 24/ 1 3 (HB) -0.2/ 2.3 72/ 112 2/ 9
Carlton Mitchell CLEV 6 (177) 4, 9 17/ 0 3 (SE) 0.1/ -1.0 12/ 42 0/ 0
Tony Pike CAR 7 (204) 4, 22 1/ 0 waived injured in August 2011 -1.1/ NA 22/ NA 0/ NA

Some thoughts: The most obvious is that Lee and Bowman, Dallas' two first-round, Penn St. linebackers (guys who most of us slotted in the third or fourth round--where a lot of draft gurus had them--when we heard that they were Dallas Day invitees in early April 2010), seem to have fulfilled the promise the Cowboys saw in them (and the rest of the league doesn't seem to have). For their work on Sean Lee and NaVorro Bowman, Ciskowski and Co. get gold stars.

-The defensive backs on this list offer less shining examples: although Morgan Burnett has earned a starting safety position in Green Bay, the Packers pass defense has been suspect (on the other side of the coin, Burnett's 2011 PFF grade was the highest in the Packers' secondary). Brandon Ghee, the kind of size/ speed ratio DB who peaked the Cowboys' interest in recent years (along the lines of Tracy Porter, Charles Godfrey and Akwasi Owusu-Ansah), has done little to nothing of note in Cincy.

-Nobody on this second chart received the egregiously low PFF grades that Davis, Beadles and Veldheer carry. As a result, its hard to say that the Cowboys overvalued anybody. An notable exception might be the aforementioned AOA, who was drafted about where Dallas rated him. Because of this, we cannot know what the rest of the league felt about his skill set. Given that he's been a washout thus far, a strong argument can be made that the Cowboys overrated him.

To Ol' Rabble, still haunted by the memory of disastrous drafts during the Larry Lacewell years, when Dallas was drafting guys like Shante Carver in the first round when they carried seventh-round grades in Green Bay (according to Ron Wolf), the fact that Dallas' current draftmeisters seem, at the very least, to be in accord with--if not slightly ahead of--the rest of the league in terms of talent evaluation is a welcome sight. These numbers seem to agree with Valley Ranch insiders: CIskowski and his guys do an excellent job setting up the Cowboys draft board. The league appears to agree: Ciskowski was on the short list to replace Bill Polian as the Colts' GM.

As we know all too well, the problem in the past has been that Jerry Jones has listened too much to his head coaches (AOA was a Wade pick, after all), allowing their opinions to outweigh that of the team's scouts. But Jason Garrett is no Wade; he comes from a scouting family and is exponentially more likely to respect Ciskowski's board--something we got a taste of in April 2011, when Dallas stayed put and took their guys. Because of this, there is a glimmer of hope not only for April 2012, but also--and more importantly--for a steady upswing in the Cowboys' ability to draft consistently well in coming years.

8 recs  |  172 comments

Comments

Great post. One quibble:

does a single bust mean we overrated? Or does it mean that we, and other teams, rightly rated that guy about that round, and that a certain number of players rated at that round are going to make it and a certain number aren’t?

Statistically, I’d like to see the percentage of busts for Dallas, at the same round, compared to the percentage of busts for other teams.

I get the overall methodology, but want to steer clear from the notion that we are being “risky” or “unrealistic” or “stupid” every time we don’t predict the future. Sometimes, when you’re dealing with the later rounds of the draft, a 60-70% hit rate is precisely what the scouting department expects and should expect. I might argue that a 100% hit rate would imply something wrong with your draft strategy—an inability to take risks.

Excellent point
A debate we continue at Drafttek . . .

I maintain that any evaluation of a draft class before 3 years have passed is not worth the paper it’s written on . . . now having said that, we produce 1 and 2 year fodder for the masses.

But now that I’ve got that off my chest, it was a well researched, written and data-substantiated article, Rabble.

I don't disagree; the numbers show these guys improving and adjusting to the league, etc.

to the point where they can actually be evaluated.

But I do think we can assess with some accuracy whether Ciskowski and crew were way off base, and I don’t think they were—not in the Quincy Carter, Kareem Larrimore sense.

LOL, well as long as we're grading on the Quincy Carter/Kareem Larrimore curve . . .

I’m making straight A’s, I’m young, handsome, rich, and have to fight off all the beautiful women in the world!!!

It's tough, isn't it?
Nicely done Rabble

It would be interesting to know who all of Wade’s picks were.

well, they would have been on defense from 2007-2010

Let’s take a look. Here are the guys i that period that I have heard identified as “Wade picks”:

Anthony Spencer (2007)
Jason Williams (2009)
Victor Butler (2009)
Brandon Williams (2009)
Akwasi Owusu-Ansah (2010)

Anybody have any others?

What about Jenkins and Scandrick from 2008?
I like Spence and Butler,

But considering where everyone was chosen, kind of an ugly list…

yup
Why is Victor considered a bust?

We haven’t even given him a chance yet.

Don't think he's considered a bust, really.

Just kinda gets lumped in with all the other atrocious picks.

Er.. not a bust, yet.*
How is a 4th round pick

EVER considered a bust?

He may not have had first round expectations

But if he doesn’t show solid production (which I expect him to do), I think it’s fair to label it a bust. It may be the fourth round, but you can still get very good value there. If you expect a guy to be a contributor, and he isn’t, it’s a bust. Not a first round bust, but a bust all the same.

Don’t think that’ll be the case with Butler though.

I am confused

If Dallas had Bowman ranked so high, why didn’t they trade up to get him before he went to the Niners? I can only imagine how good they would be now if they had taken him instead of the totally worthless AOA?

We traded up twice to get Dez and Lee.

Had no pick in round #3, so I guess they didn’t want to give up a future high draft pick to trade up again to get Bowman.

That and drafting Lee and Bowman in the same draft doesn't make much sense.

While a good move, theres other battles to fight.

If I'm wrong

The thinking after the Vikings disaster was Brooking and James couldn’t be on the field at the same time, and that sooner rather than later, both needed to be replaced. Instead of foresaking other positions and replace both in one draft, address the ILB position in consecutive drafts to ease the transition.

It's awfully odd to see teammates at a position in college drafted by the same pro-team

I mean even QB/WR, or RB/FB, or even G/T/C combos are bizarre to see.

some folks have noted that

had Dallas not traded up in round one to draft Dez Bryant (which they probably didn’t have to do; Baltimore, who they wanted to trade in front of, wasn’t likely to take him) they would have held onto their third round pick, which was about # 90. Where was Bowman taken? # 91.

They could conceivably have nailed THREE of their first round targets in rounds 1-3…

Thanks Rabble, now I want some Alka-Seltzer
Noooo....

Baltimore would have take Dez easily, why do you think they jumped them? They just signed Boldin and it was clear they needed some more help at that position. Dez is clearly Baltimore’s type (freakish talent, a lil character baggage) and fit a huge need for them, and he was BPA on most boards.

'Folks in B'more have said they wouldn't have taken Dez

Apparently, he might not even have been on their board…

Here’s the argument: http://www.cowboysnation.com/2012/01/turning-three-1st-rounders-into-two.html

I don't know.. I am an hour away and all I heard was Dez Dez Dez
from the front office, or the media/ fans?

There were some guys in 2010 who fans were lobbying for but who weren’t even on the Cowboys’ board…

well obviously noone knows that the FO really believes or wanted.

Everyone was saying, wanting, hoping, citing sources if Dez fell he was there guy and its still painfully clear the Ravens need a WR.

I mean heck do the OCC google thing

Type Ravens wanted… and Dez is the 2nd one and there are plenty of stories and sources.

I don't know, the Ravens fans expected and wanted Dez badly.

Their boards were pretty upset when we jumped them and got Dez.
I don’t know that I would put much stock in what a FO claims when they are pretending to not care that they lost out on a player.

Cowboys fans wanted Steven Jackson in 2004

How did that turn out?

Fans and Front Offices don’t always see eye to eye.

I hate Bill Parcells

That’s how that turned out.

lol I agree
That's odd

I recall the guys in B-more’s war room being caught on tape mouthing, “they took our guy” after Dallas took dez

They were interested, in him pre-draft for sure...

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Source-Dez-Bryant-visiting-the-Ravens-today.html

While they may have decided that they weren’t going to take him or someone was higher on their board, I don’t think that makes jumping them a bad move. There’s a lot of pokerface action going on around the draft, most teams like to play things close to the chest. It’s not unreasonable to think that the Ravens would be interested in Dez, in fact it’s unreasonable to think that he might not be on their radar. They had Bryant either 11th or 12th on their board, I’d say moving up to secure him was worth the 3rd rounder.

There was also this too:

http://www.nbcdfw.com/blogs/blue-star/Why-I-Like-The-Pick-of-Dez-Bryant-For-Dallas-91884099.html

One thing on the second chart.

Better to be right about the top coupld of players and off on the others than the reverse. So that was a good job on Lee and Bowman.

And kudos for the work you put into this.

I am surprised they didn't go after Ghee when he got released
I know they liked Tracy Porter

I wouldn’t mind signing him at all, I’ve always like his game

Tracy Porter will return to form

Did you see how he jumped that slant intended for Reggie Wayne in the SB and returned for the game clinching pick 6? When was the last time a Dallas Cowboy CB did something smart like that?

Newman had a pretty nifty pick six earlier this year.

How soon we forget the first eight or so games he played he was good…then, well we all know what happened.

3 of his 4 INTs came against Seattle and Buffalo
A two pick game's still a two pick game

I mean eight picks is an amazing season, and that’s half a pick a game. He still played pretty well earlier in the season until Thanksgiving. I’m not saying he’s not cooked, but the Cowboys have had some good corners in the past.

Not disagreeing with that.
He's old, prone to injury and has lost a step.
McCann vs the Giants in 2010
you're right
nice Rabble

nice job

over the past few years, primarily since 2010, the way the war room has handled the draft has been much better
it seems like they finally understand how to set up the board properly and are doing a good job evaluating talent

the OL theory has just changed, so I think they underrated Roger Saffold
the S thinking needs to change too, having TJ Ward with a 4th round grade is nuts
but at least they were high on Burnett

interesting they like McKnight so much, also interesting how they liked Ghee so much, looking at Ghee, he has size 6’0 and speed 4.4
pretty much shows us what they look for in CB’s

"can't teach speed"

I guess in terms of overused worthless memes that’s probably the most truthful. In today’s NFL it’s illegal to play a WR tough so maybe they prefer a DB with speed and adequate cover skills so they can refine a corners cover skills to fit with the NFL, whereas you can’t turn a 4.45 guy into a 4.3 guy.

yup
I mean the pass game in college is just soooo different from the pros.

Like I’m sure Morris Claiborne will be good, but he’s being praised for his cover skills, not his physical tools. There was one QB in the SEC that I could see competing in the next level, and he was kicked off his team half way through the season. How are his cover skills going to hold up when he can’t breath on a receiver who’s two steps faster than he is and he’s facing QBs that can throw a football through a life saver?

He better be fast, be able to turn his head, and have ball skills. He's going to need em
Oh yeah

I mean any corner will, Claiborne is just so technically sound I’m sure he’ll be fine, but lets not pretend he’s bust proof. Corner’s a tough position to play in today’s NFL and having the rare physical attributes gives you a competitive advantage over everyone else.

You don't think Tyler Wilson from Arkansas is any good?

He is already being talked about as possibly the 1st or 2nd QB taken next year.

Has a very good arm that can make all of the throws in the N.F.L….has plus ball placement and can put the ball into tight windows…mobile in the pocket, doesn’t rush for a lot of yards…Very tough quarterback, he gets knocked around but keeps throwing…Has pretty good accuracy…Has franchise Quarterback potential

http://nflmocks.com/2011/11/27/tyler-wilson-scouting-report-qb-arkansas/

BTW if you watch the video on that link, that is when Mallet was hurt during the Tiger game playing against Cam Newton a year ago.

The combined score was over 100, with over 1000 yards from the teams by the middle of the 4th quarter.
The Hogs didn’t win, but a hell of a performance by a then backup QB coming into a game against the eventual nation champion. He got better last year when he was finally the starter.

I like Tyler Wilson

If we don’t take a QB this year, I think he could be on our radar in 2013.

I don’t think he’ll be the top pick at QB, see Matt Barkley, but I think he could be the 2nd QB taken in the draft.

ATM he is being projected to be a top 10 pick next year. He was projected to be a 1st rounder this year if he had come out.

I hope we don’t draft in that range.

More important than speed is instincts.

Newman had the instincts of a water bottle.

This is why I like Chase Minnifield

His father was a CB, and Chase was really good at VA. He’s been taught his whole life how to play the position.

Instincts don't matter when receivers have five steps on you.

Keeping up with the receiver is worth something.

Like Newman ?
Keeping up with the receiver is worth something.

Instincts are most important.

Ezhibit A. Stanford Routt , fast not instinctive. Look at his allowed stats last season. Then tell me how that speed worked out Omar.

i'm going to disagree about newman

i thought his insticts were ok, certainly good enough to be an elite corner. the difference between him being an all-pro player instead of the very very good corner he was for many years is that he can’t catch the ball. at all. worst hands on a starting caliber corner i can think of.

I think pre-2011 Carlos Rogers has something to say about that.
Newman was a fine player for several years, he just hit a wall, which happens.

Not all players have the durability to have careers longer than a decade. Speed’s obviously not everything, I don’t think I said otherwise. You have to be able to play football, but even with Routt, he wasn’t great but his main problems was giving up too many penalties. Considering how he was never a pure football standout, I’d say that’s pretty good.

Instincts are our CBs' downfall.
what are these instincts you speak of?
Our CBs seems to have a disctinct inability to

turn their head the (explative,) around to check for the ball. Rarely do they break on balls well or time jumps where they are competing for an INT in the air.

BNSB, it was a joke, I agree with you
Sorry. Little sensitive, apparently...

I think a nap is in order…

It's all good man
What are these corners you speak of?

Are these the guys that follow the other teams’ receivers once they catch a pass?

Newman had a pretty good career, at least I think so.

He did. We may have held on a tad too long though.
Yeah, that's the thing

You can’t predict health, Champ Bailey is still going strong after all these years, Newman who is roughly the same age and same size (shorter but more bulk) probably doesn’t even deserve a starting spot anymore.

One of my first posts way back when was a profile of the DBs Dallas likes

and, yes, they tend to be bigger (5’11’ +), with legit speed. I suppose they feel that those are baselines, and figure they can coach technique.

and Tracy Porter was certainly one of them
Agree that JG's approach and scouting heritage is critical in offsetting JJ's wildcatter instincts

His respect for scouting, together with his calm, rational, logical approach maximises the Boys chances for more consistent draft success. No guarantee of success, the draft remains a crapshoot.

It is critical in offsetting JJ’s heritage as a wildcatter (defn: someone who drills for oil where no-one else thinks there can possibly be any).

The draft is all about maximising probabilities, so i don’t mind the odd swing for the fences JJ’s style (which these days seems mainly confined to taking Carters with injury risks, rather than Quincy Carters) – as long as it is balanced with a number of solid probability picks.

so one pick for Jerry

six picks for Jason. I think I could handle that every draft.

Ware was a Jerry pick...

As was Aikman.

Wasn't Emmitt also?
I think so

He fell pretty far and Jerry was definitely glad to take him, IIRC he even traded up for him.

I think that's the right approach to the draft.

Lets say Dre Kirkpatrick breaks his leg in a car accident, and he’s there in the second…I’d say that’s worth waiting around a few weeks for. If there’s a guy you have a first round grade on, that’s hurt and falls to the second you’re foolish to select a player you think is inferior, just because he’d be ready faster. People get hurt, it’s a part of life. Likewise, there’s also value in a player that’s going to contribute something to your team, even if it’s just a third down back, a nickel corner, a situational passrusher, or a back up QB. Those types of players are worth a 4th or a 5th round pick.

Mark Barron had hernia surgery, if he falls he could be our guy in the 2nd round
Oh yeah, I think the clamoring for a safety is overblown

Obviously a good one would help, but hell a good anything would help, but they’d be foolish not to take him in the 2nd. Unless like Ingram or Jenkins is there too for some odd reason. Or like they get Kirkpatrick in the first and Osemele, Jones, or Konz is there too.

Omar you must not remember Darren Woodson.
You mean that guy that keeps getting snubbed for the HoF?

Yeah I remember him, he was pretty damn good, my point is that a guy that’s that good at any position is always welcome on a team.

Right now you can't go wrong with bpa.

A safety like him could mask a few problems. He was also making the secondary calls. That gets over looked imo at times.

you can't win in this league without an all-pro caliber safety

watching Barron play over the last 3 years, I think he could be one of those guys.

So if Mark is there @ 14 do u take him?
I would. I believe safety is more k
I would

I believe having a really good safety is more important than having a Darrell Revis. Give me decent corners and a really good safety any time.

No way.

Without Revis that Jets defense is pretty average. They roll coverage away from Revis because Revis allows them to shut down one side of the field. Without Revis that defense is too think to cover the field as is.

That Jets Defense is already average/overrated

1) Jim Leonhard and Eric Smith are garbage safeties that are horrible against the pass. The way to beat the Jets is spread them out, go hurry up and throw quick short passes over the middle of the field, and then run at them while they’re in Nickle and Dime. Teams lose to the Jets thinking they can just come out and line up in I formation and run right into their front 7-not going to happen unless you have Tebow at QB.

You question Ed Reed’s greatness, how come the Jets with Darrell Revis haven’t won a SB?

2) Their pass rushers are terrible. It’s pretty laughable; during the Ravens game earlier in the season, they were so desperate to generate pressure that they resorted to blitzing RB Joe McKnight off the edge.

Few things...

Well lots of folks round these parts think Leonhard is pretty good, I’m not one of them but he’s definitely not garbage I’d easily take him over Elam and every safety in the division not named Kenny Phillips. Two, I never said Corner is one of the most important positions on the field, nor did I say you need good corners to win a Super Bowl nor did I go out of my way to make several correlation/causation errors with corners and SB success. However, the reason why the Jets haven’t won a Super Bowl is named Mark Sanchez. I’m throughly on the OL bandwagon.

agreed the "sanchize" is terrible
u know @ this point i'll gladly take any upgrade

to any position n this team needs quite a few positions addressed… It’d be great to find that next ed reed or polamalu but i guess as the saying goes those guys don’t grow on trees.

you cant?

What all pro safety were in the playoffs? Superbowl?

Kenny Phillips is pretty good

But lets not pretend he’s the reason why the Giants won last year.

Kenny Phillips, Deion Grant, and Antrell Rolle

had as much to do with Giants winning the SB as their front 4.

Rolle, Phillips, and Grant locked up the middle of the field. Especially against the Packers receivers and TEs.

Antrell Rolle sucks.

He’s downright terrible. The front four and offense has much more to do with their success than Kenny Phillips, one good game doesn’t make a team’s unit. It’s the pass rush and the offense why they’re where they are. Phillips is awesome, but lets not pretend like he’s the reason why they’re SB champs.

Antrell Rolle as a corner is not great

But as a FS he’s pretty damn good. He was an assett covering Tight Ends and Slot Receivers.

The Giants have always had a really good pass rush. But without those safeties covering the middle of the field they don’t beat the Packers in this year’s playoffs.

No Rolle sucks

If the Cowboys traded Sensabaugh for him I would cry, Kenny Phillips however is the man. PFF’s had him at -5.6, -10.1, and -17.8 from 2009-2011. He’s awful, terrible contract handed out by the Giants. He may have had a good game here and there, but on the whole he’s a hole.

Ham

Since 1992 Nearly every SB Champ had an all-pro/pro bowl calliber safety outside of the 99 rams and 07 gmen
1992: Dallas had Thomas Everett
1993: Dallas had Thomas Everett
1994: 49ers had Merton Hanks
1995: Dallas had Darren Woodson
1996: Packers had LeRoy Butler
1997: Broncos had Steve Atwater
1998: Broncos had Steve Atwater
2000: Ravens had Rod Woodson (FS)
2001: Patriots had Lawyer Milloy
2002: Bucs had John Lynch
2003: Patriots had Rodney Harrison
2004: Patriots had Rodney Harrison
2005: Steelers had Troy Polamalu
2006: Colts had Bob Sanders (was healthy in the playoffs).
2008: Steelers had Troy Polamalu
2009: Saints had Darren Sharper
2010: Packers had Nick Collins (IR in 2011)
2011: Giants had Antrele Rolle

Having a really good safety is necessary for a defense in this league. It takes away the middle of the field for passes to TEs and RBs.

Why have the Eagles come back to the rest of the NFC after making 5 NFC Title games from 01-08? They never adequately replaced Brian Dawkins at Safety. For all the sacks they get and for all the CBs they have, they still get picked apart by tight ends and RBs over the middle of the field.

Why did the Steelers lose to Denver? They were without Ryan Clark at FS for the entire game and lost Troy Polamalu to an injury during the game. Denver was able to shred Pittsburgh thru the air.

How come the Saints pass defense hasn’t been the same since they won the SB? Darren Sharper got older in 2010 was injured and wasn’t even on the team in 2011? They couldn’t stop passes over the deep middle-See Vernon Davis in the playoff game.

How did the Packers go from having one of the better pass defenses in football in 2010 to one of the worst in 2011? They lost Pro Bowl Safety Nick Collins to a neck injury against the Panthers early in the season.

Why did the 2008 Dallas Cowboys pass defense go to hell by mid season? Roy Williams was lost for the year with a forearm injury.

Correlation/Causation

All of those teams had several other awesome units, and the safety wasn’t the key player on all of their units. Those Cowboys/49ers/Broncos/Colts/ teams were all offense centered teams. They had solid defenses but elite offenses backed by HoF QBs. Those Pats teams’ defenses were more elite at the LB corps and DL and they had Ty Law. Another HoFer.

I'm not discrediting the other positions on those teams.

Those safeties were also big reasons why their teams won.

Where would Dallas be if James Washington doesn’t force those turnovers against Buffalo in SBXXVIII?

Remember Dexter Jackson’s pick 6 and 2INTs vs the Raiders in the SB?

Lawyer Milloy in SB 36 was an assassin hitting Rams receivers and Marshall Faulk…he deflected 3 passes (led team) and had 7 tackles that game. Watch that game, he was every where.

I'm not saying these safeties weren't good players nor am I saying that they didn't help their teams

What I am saying is that you’re blowing the safety thing out of proportion, and making it a bigger deal than what it is. In most cases some of these safeties weren’t the key guys on their team. The fact that they were safeties isn’t why they helped their team, the fact that they were good players is what helped their teams. Troy Polomalu was the best safety on that list and Woodson’s the only other HoFer, Woodson wasn’t exactly Rod Woodson in 2000, either.

James Washington had a great game against Buffalo, but lets stop acting like it was James Washington that’s the reason why they were there, hell no…it was the offense and that great offensive line. Probably the best OL of all time, that’s why Dallas won three Super Bowls.

The Bucs, yeah Dexter Jackson had a great game but it was a blow out…you can’t really put the win on any one guy. Lawyer Milloy was awesome, I always liked the guy…but c’mon man…that game was all about Tom Brady and Adam Vinatieri.

To win a Super Bowl a team needs a competent QB, and good players around that QB. Doesn’t matter what position they play a team just needs good players. If the Colts had Nnamdi Asomugha (while he was still the man) and say Jim Leonhard instead of Sharper/Harper they still win the SB, hell if anything they’re a better team.

James Washington

In SB XXVIII
1) caused a fumble of Thurman Thomas, which Dallas recovered and on that possession went up 6-3

2) After trailing 13-6 at the half, James Washington scored a fumble recovery TD 45 seconds into the third quarter which tied the game at 13 all.

3) An Emmitt Smith TD made the game 20-13, as the game headed to the 4th Qrtr. James Washington on the first play of the final period intercepted Jim Kelly and ran the ball back to the Bills 34 yard line…8 plays later Emmitt Smith scored a TD making it 27-13.

James Washington influenced the outcome of that game. His forced fumble in the first quarter, fumble recovery td in the 3rd quarter, and interception in the fourth quarter led to 17 points scored by the Cowboys. The final score of that game was 30-13, a 17 point margin of victory in the Cowboys repeat SB win over Buffalo. Emmitt Smith may have won MVP with his 100 yards and 2 TDs, but James Washington had as much to do with the win as Emmitt did.

Yeah you're right...

They should remove Emmitt, Aikman, and Irvin from the HoF and get a restraining order against Larry Allen at Canton. Clearly the reason the Cowboys were the team of the 90s was James Washington.

Please.

I never said Aikman, Emmitt, Irvin, or Allen don't belong in the HOF

I just said that James Washington had a big impact on Dallas winning SB 28. If you can’t comprhend that Omar, then I don’t know what to tell you.

You can’t deny the fact that his forced fumble set up Dallas to take a 6-3 lead; his TD 45 seconds into the third quarter erased Buffalo’s lead for good, as it lead to a 13-13 tie; his 4th quarter interception led to an Emmitt TD which made the game 27-13. None of this is to say the Triplets or Larry Allen don’t belong in the HOF. All it says those 4 guys didn’t do it all by themselves.

I never said James Washington was solely responsible for the success of the 1990s Cowboys. I said they probably don’t win the SB 28 rematch with Buffalo.

I don't recall saying that Washington was a scrub

Just that you’re vastly overstating his role. No one does it all by themselves, but without David Tyree the Giants don’t beat the Pats, but no one says that he’s the most important player on that team. Or hell, even Greer who got the clinching pick-6 against Manning for the Saints…I guess corner is the new thing you absolutely need.

I'm not overstating James Washington's role

I simply gave an accurate description of what transpired in Super Bowl 28. If you disagree you can go back and watch the game for yourself.

The game was tied 3-3 in the first quarter, Washington forces a fumble, Cowboys recover the ball, and the Cowboys kick a go ahead FG to go up 6-3.

Cowboys trail 13-6 at halftime. 45 Seconds into the 3rd Quarter, James Washington has a fumble recovery TD, which ties the game at 13.

Fourth Quarter, Cowboys up 20-13, James Washington INTs Jim Kelly’s pass. The Cowboys take the ball and score a TD to
go up 27-13.

The Cowboys aren’t winning SB 28 going away unless Washington makes those plays. That’s bot overrating his role on the team. That’s merely stating the impact he had on the game.

I never used the words “most important player on the team” and “James Washington” in the same sentence. That would be stupid.

Dexter Jackson in SB XXXVIII

1) With the game tied at 3-3, Jackson intercepted Rich Gannon near midfield, 9 plays later the Bucs took a 6-3 lead.

2) On the very next possession, Dexter Jackson intercepted Rich Gannon at the Bucs 30, returned it 25 yrds to the Raiders 45.

His two interceptions in the first half of that game occured when the game was still in doubt.

My bad on the pick 6, Dwight Smith scored the first pick 6 to make the game 34-3.

That game was a blow out

Warren Sapp, Booger McFarland, Derrick Brooks, and Simeon Rice were the guys on that defense. I’m sure the Bucs would have much rather lost Dexter Jackson for any one game than either of those other four.

That SB became a blowout

thanks in part to Dexter Jackson’s play. He made his two key interceptions when the game was nowhere close to being a blowut. If you ask John Lynch, Ronde Barber, Warren Sapp, and Derrick Brooks, Simeon Rice, and Booger McFarland, they’d tell you the same thing. Jackson’s INTs stopped Raiders drives that went into Bucs territory in the first quarter.

That SB didn’t start becoming a blowout until the second quarter. If you don’t believe me, go back look at the box score-see the scores by quarter, and see the play by play summary for each quarter. Fyi, Dexter Jackson was named SB MVP.

The Saints won the SB thanks in part to Jabari Greer

So I guess corner is the new position de jour, right? Remember Larry Allen against the Steelers? You can do this with any position.

Athletes are also the stupidest creatures on the planet, their opinions on things are worthless in any and all cases. See: Sean Salisbury, Mike Ditka, Keyshawn Johnson, Teddy Bruschi, Mark Schlereth, Shannon Sharpe, and the rest of ESPN’s crew. So I don’t really care what Sapp,Brooks, and Rice think. Jackson had a good game guys at every position have good games in the Super Bowl…it doesn’t make that position more important than another just because of it.

It was actually Tracy Porter who pick 6'd Peyton Manning in the SB

nice effort though

Larry Allen played Guard for the Cowboys

You probably mean Larry Brown, the guy who had to passes thrown directly at him with no WR in his area. Yeah that guy. The Cowboys were wise to let him walk in FA. The only reason he got those INTs was because of Deion Sanders locking down the other side of the field. Who ever played opposite Deion would’ve been the beneficiary of those passes.

Pretty sure you can...

Correlation/Causation errors. I don’t think Safety play is what stopped the Pats or what helped the Packers, Saints, or other teams that have won the Super Bowl. Sure, Troy Polamalu helps the Steelers out quite a bit but he’s a top ten defender in the league. Darrelle Revis helps the Jets out quite a bit and Patrick Willis helps the 49ers out quite a bit, any time you have a player that good he helps you out. The biggest thing you need in this league is a QB that can do some serious work. Right now the OL isn’t allowing Romo to do the type of things he needs to do, I’d say that’s the biggest need at this point.

So why does it not seem that Ware is helping us out ?

He gets a sack and it’s second and 17 and bam first down.

because this team has a very weak

secondary n there’s no big nt to push the pocket, the opposing qb just steps up then finds the receiver.

The most important positions in football

1) QB
2) OL
3) Pass Rush
4) Safety

Last I checked, Kevin Smith and Larry Brown were JAG CBs who helped Dallas win 2 SBs. Had Kevin Smith not gotten hurt on MNF against the Giants, Dallas probably doesn’t sign Deion. We didn’t need Deion Sanders until Kevin Smith got hurt.

That is such an oversimplification it's not even funny.

Pass rush encompasses at least three different positions, as does the OL.

Well it seems that way because you're an idiot.

The defense was right around average no matter how you measure the unit, in no small part due to DeMarcus Ware. He’s had neck problems in the past and the DL is kinda meh. Also the reason why the team got torched so often in the 2nd half was because of Newman. There was also the whole issue of inability to score in the second half or control the clock with a running game. OL’s still the biggest need.

We'd get off the field more on third down if we had a big time safety that made teams think otherwise

If we had a big time safety we don’t lose the Patriots game on a TD pass to Aaron Hernandez.

We wouldn’t constantly get beat by long bombs or broken plays over the middle of the field. Story of our defense ever since Woodson retired.

If they had a big time anything else in place of a weakness they'd get off the field on 3rd down more

That’s such a flawed argument. What if they had a big time corner? What if they had Darrelle Revis, Brent Grimes, or Joe Hayden instead of Newman? Victor Cruz doesn’t rip them apart and they’re in the playoffs. Aaron Hernandez had one of the best seasons a TE’s ever had, I don’t think you can simply say “a big time safety would have beaten him.” What if they had Marcel Dareus or Patrick Willis instead of Bradie Brooking. Or what if they had Justin Smith?

They got beat on long bombs last season because corners were beat six yards after the play and safeties were the primary cover guys. All the elite safeties you can name (Ed Reed notwithstanding) are never in position to be the primary cover guy. They’re there to help the corners, not do the corner’s job. Speaking of Reed, how many championships has he brought to Baltimore? He’s the greatest Safety of this generation, why hasn’t he taken Baltimore to the promised land? Why? Because safety isn’t as important of a positon as you think, they’re basically the back up generators of NFL defenses. They’re there if the other guys get beat.

Obviously, I’d love to have Earl Thomas or Kenny Phillips on the Cowboys, but I’d rather have Haloti Ngata, Joe Hayden, Darrelle Revis, Patrick Willis, Justin Smith, Marcel Dareus, Trent Cole, or Von Miller.

Ed Reed and the Defense have done their job in Baltimore

The reason the Ravens haven’t won a SB since Ed Reed has been there is due to the fact that the Ravens offense has been mediocre. Their oline is garbage in pass protection, and their WRs & TEs are inconsistent. Also, Cam Cameron’s play calling is pathetic. People here get angry at Garrett, have they watched the Ravens?

Well you're missing my larger point:

Your love for safeties is misguided. Good defenses usually have a good safety, they also usually have a good pass rush, a few good LBs, and some good corners. Teams that win the Super Bowl usually have a good defense, or at least a top ten one (which really isn’t all that good, upper third of the league)

On your list lots of those teams had some pretty damn good cornerbacks and linebackers, why not make the same argument there? The safety is just that, a safety net. They’re there if the corners need help or a run’s already gotten a first down so he doesn’t get another ten yards. It doesn’t work if the corner’s already burned, and they’re really not all that useful if they have to make tackles 12 yards deep after runs six or seven times a game. If you’re saying that they should do better than Elam, I agree…but if you’re pretending that safety was a bigger problem than the OL or Newman after Thanksgiving, you’re dead wrong.

What about McCray?

-two years of nice physical gains in the offseason
-has great football awareness
-lays a nice lick
-brings a great blitz off the edge
-Big and fast(6’1"/222/4.4/23 reps)

McCray is not starting material.

Special teams lifer imo. He can play in a few sub packages.

So what you're saying is..

..somebody go break Dre’s leg?

Nice and simple. I like it.

Excellent post

I wonder what Ciskowski thinks about CURRENT players like:

Doug Free-(RT or LT or OG) and worth $8 mil/yr?
Spencer-resign or no? If so, how much?
Who will be the starting safety opposite Sensy next year? Elam? Draft pick or diff FA?

Drafting is one thing and it seems they might be good scouts of prospects. But dealing w/ actual players on the team (that they know and come to like/dislike) is another…

Free was good in 2009 and one of the best tackles in the league in 2010.

So I guess maybe just a bad year.

He was good when Kosier was helping him out
I doubt Kosier returns

Free’s going to have to step it up. Going back to RT is a positive step towards that.

You can stick a fork in him
I agree, if he is able to play next year it won't be before the mid/end of the year.
Another thing I think everyone has to realize

You’re going to get some picks wrong. If you get maybe one out of ten first rounders wrong and say three out ten second rounders wrong, and hit on half of your third rounders you’re fielding the best team in the NFL. So there are margins for error.

Is it just me

or in the picture Rabble used for the article, doesn’t it look like Kevin Kolb is crapping in his pants?

he was

I cropped the picture where I did because it was just too gross…!

Hahahahahaha.....

Aaaaahhhh.

photoshopped?

Is Sean Lee eight feet tall? How is it that Kolb (who’s in the foreground) looks so much smaller than Lee despite being closer to the camera?

Kolb is on the ground/knee
Rabble,great article.

Looking at your first chart the scouts were very mistaken about Ben Tate. He just happens to play behind Arian Foster.

I believe Ben Tate was one of the players the Cowboys talked to at that Senior Bowl
Just one little contention Rabble...

Unless I’m reading it wrong, Veldheer rebounded this past season to a 5.9 grade. Not too shabby. His rookie season, he had the typical learning curve to battle, but I believe he had to pull some time in camp as a center also, which may have stunted his LT development. Otherwise, well…….you always do great posts. You did here, as well.

fair enough

a worthy contention!

BTW Rabble....

I don’t want you to think I brought up Veldheer cuz I once had him in the 2nd for a mock up I did. Noooo….It’s not that at all!

I wanted Velheer after watching him at the combine

he had the quickness and footwork you look for

and of course that wingspan…

I watched two Raider games this year and he was quite solid in both. BUT I think that Tyron will be better in the end at LT so …

I think though, personally, if you were to go back to around 2007 or so and look just at O linemen I have a hunch you would find we consistently rated a big number of them about a round later then we should have

The Arrival of Redball

and the improvement in the player acquisition department are the two brightest things to happen to the organization since the last Super Bowl win (in the last ice age)

great post, thanks.

It seems that our scouts are almost dead on in the oline department

Makes you wonder why they haven’t drafted earlier for oline.

I want the OL fixed once and for all this season. I'm tired of watching Tony run for his life!
well,In 2010, it seems that they didn't think as highly of the available o-linemen as the rest of the league

so the players were snapped up before they Cowboys thought they should have been drafted.

when every one of your o-line targets is taken a round or two before you think they should be, you’ll never draft any OL, unless you deviate mightily from your board.

I just noticed Clifton Geathers was listed as a 5th rd player. Just thought I’d mention that since I haven’t heard anyone comment about that.

Auction Theory and the Cowboys' draft board

In rabble’s tables, there are 14 players that the Cowboys undervalued by two rounds and 7 that the Cowboys overvalued by 2 rounds or more. Frankly, I’m surprised there aren’t much more players on the undervalued list, and the reason for this is Auction Theory.

Auction theory says that when different people estimate the value of a given object, there will be a range of values estimated. Obviously, the people who estimate the highest value for an object will likely be willing to pay the most for it. This means that auctioned items will almost always go for more than the average person (or the consensus) values it.

In the draft, the 32 teams have 32 grades for each prospect. The teams with the highest grades for a given prospect will usually draft that player. It is highly likely the vast majority of players drafted are selected higher than where the ‘consensus’ grade would have slotted them.

a great example of that is AOA

sure, he went where Dallas slotted him, so we think they tabbed him where the average is…but we don’t know where anybody else had him.

In retrospect, it seems that they might be the only ones who had him that high.

I wonder: is David Arkin, last year’s fourth rounder, another example of this? Our good friend from Draftek (who commented above) claimed so after the draft last year?

that would be Long Ball (sorry LB!)
I may be wrong on this, but I thought the Eagles liked AOA as well
they did, home state player type of deal.
Sometimes players just don't work out

AOA looked like a return guy that could play corner in some nickel packages, as in replace Scandrick, and it ended up not working. Meh, it happens. Teams whiff on 4th rounders all the time.

Auction theory applies to FA bidding more than the draft.
Maybe

It applies strongly to both situations. I suppose you could argue that it directly affects FA bidding. While drafting is through developing a board and then going off that. Two steps versus 1. But the theory absolutely is huge in both.

If Bruce Carter pans out

The Cowboys would have gotten 5 1st rounders in two years. Dez, Lee, Smith, and Carter all being 1st round rated and murray playing like a 1st rounder. It would be interesting to find out where they slotted Murray, I’d like to know if they slotted him high or if they got lucky.

They tried to trade back into the first for Ingram last year.
I didn't want to watch a Cowboy cry on opening day.

Glad they got Murray instead of Ingram.

CB Routt

From Oakland was just cut, another decent CB, that is better than ours, in FA

If he'd stop with the penalties he'd be pretty good.
He's not bad if you're ONLY asking him to cover.

Since that’s all he’s good at. Of course, that’s a pretty good thing to be good at for a corner. He’s got flaws, but he’d be an upgrade over just about anything we have right now if the price is right. I think there are probably too many teams interested in him to get him on the cheap, though.

He's okay in run coverage too

Well, for a corner that is…

This
Jason Garrett is no Wade; he comes from a scouting family and is exponentially more likely to respect Ciskowski’s board—something we got a taste of in April 2011, when Dallas stayed put and took their guys.

I know its something Broddaus says on ESPN Radio all the time, but I completely agree with this. The fact that Garret’s father was a scout and the amount of respect he has for those guys is huge

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