A little over a week ago we looked at the Production Ratio of outside linebackers in this year's draft class. Today we switch our focus to defensive linemen.
The Production Ratio is really a very simple formula that adds up sacks and tackles-for-loss and divides them by number of college games played. The resulting ratio measures the playmaking potential of front seven players coming out of college.
After the break we look at how many defensive line playmakers will be available for the Cowboys in the draft - and there may be less than you think.
The Production Ratio is calculated as follows:
(SACKS + TACKLES FOR LOSS) / NUMBER OF GAMES PLAYED = PRODUCTION RATIO
What you want in a Production Ratio is a score of 1.0 or better. Effectively, a score of 1.0 says that a player recorded one splash play in the defensive backfield per game. The higher the number, the better. But keep in mind that not every player along the defensive line, especially in a 3-4, is tasked with generating sacks and tackles for loss.
The nose tackle for example has two specific roles. Against the run, the NT's job is to make sure the running back can't run straight up the field. By clogging up the middle, the runner will have to move outside where the rest of the defense can tackle him. Against the pass, the NT's job is to push the center and guards backwards and help collapse the pocket. For an NT, sacks and tackles for loss are a bonus but not a prerequisite. Those stats increase in importance the further you move outside along the line.
2011 Draft Class
Before we look at the 2012 draft class, let's look at the ten top-rated linemen by production ratio from last year's draft class and how they fared in their rookie NFL season.
| Defensive Linemen | NFL | College Production | ||||||
| Draft Round / Pick | Player | Team | POS | Sacks 2011 | Sacks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 30 | Muhammad Wilkerson | NYJ | DE | 3 | 17 | 26 | 36 | 1.94 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 11 | J.J. Watt | HOU | DE | 5.5 | 11.5 | 36.5 | 26 | 1.85 |
| Round: 2 / Pick: 51 | Da'Quan Bowers | TB | DE | 1.5 | 19.5 | 43.5 | 37 | 1.70 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 13 | Robert Quinn | STL | DE | 5 | 13 | 25.5 | 25 | 1.54 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 15 | Nick Fairley | DET | DT | 1 | 13 | 27.5 | 27 | 1.50 |
| Round: 2 / Pick: 53 | Stephen Paea | CHI | DT | 2 | 15 | 30.5 | 38 | 1.20 |
| Round: 2 / Pick: 37 | Jabaal Sheard | CLE | DE | 8.5 | 19.5 | 35.5 | 46 | 1.19 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 20 | Adrian Clayborn | TB | DE | 7.5 | 19 | 37.5 | 51 | 1.11 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 24 | Cameron Jordan | NO | DE | 1 | 17.5 | 34 | 50 | 1.03 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 25 | Cameron Heyward | PIT | DE | 0 | 15.5 | 37.5 | 52 | 1.02 |
Muhammad Wilkerson had an outstanding Production Ratio, but you'll probably have to factor in that Wilkerson played at Temple in the MAC, which may not have quite the level of competition the SEC has. Then again, Troy isn't exactly a powerhouse either and produced DeMarcus Ware (1.96) and the Giants' Osi Umenyiora (1.33).
Another factor that plays a role here is the number of college games played. A high production ratio achieved over a high number of games is always a more robust indicator than a good ratio achieved in only two seasons. You can look at these numbers in many different ways: total games, only games started, only last two years etc. and all will deliver different results.
Did you know for example that Jay Ratliff originally began his Auburn career as a tight end, moved to defensive end as a sophomore and then to defensive tackle in his final season? How do you measure his "true" production ratio with that background?
This formula, like every other stat-based projective tool, is not going to be a perfect predictor of how successful these players are going to be in the NFL, and Jay Ratliff is just one example for this. But it does give you something to think about as you evaluate these players and their potential.
Cowboys Defensive Linemen
To establish a baseline of expected performance, let's look at the Cowboys linemen and their college Production Ratios.
| Draft Round / Pick | Player | POS | School | Sacks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| Round: 3 / Pick: 92 | Jason Hatcher | DE | Grambling | 18.5 | 31.5 | 28 | 1.79 |
| Round: 1 / Pick: 20 | Marcus Spears | DE | LSU | 19 | 34.5 | 48 | 1.11 |
| Round: 5 / Pick: 147 | Kenyon Coleman | DE | UCLA | 16.5 | 34 | 47 | 1.07 |
| Round: 7 / Pick: 234 | Sean Lissemore | DE/NT | William & Mary | 13.5 | 28 | 43 | 0.96 |
| Round: 7 / Pick: 1 | Josh Brent | NT | Illinois | 5 | 17.5 | 33 | 0.68 |
| Round: 7 / Pick: 224 | Jay Ratliff | NT | Auburn | 2 | 15 | 34 | 0.50 |
Hatcher joined the Cowboys from a Division I-AA Grambling State, which probably needs to be factored into his Production Ratio. None of the other Cowboys linemen were particular pass rushing standouts in college. Additionally their numbers in the Dallas defense may be somewhat limited by their roles as DE's in a 3-4. Here’s an excerpt of something Ross Tucker wrote for SI.com a while back about the difference between 3-4 and 4-3 DE's:
Defensive lineman in the 3-4 are taught to play off the blockers in front of them and as such the position is not nearly as fun as a 4-3 gap-penetrating scheme in which they just line up between offensive linemen and attempt to wreak havoc in the backfield.
... Their statistical numbers, especially in terms of both tackles for loss and sacks, would be far below their [4-3 DE] peers as a result of the difference in scheme.
3-4 Defensive Ends
And now for the 2012 draft class. The table below shows the current top-ranked defensive linemen who could play defensive end in a 3-4. The table is sorted by their CBS Draft Rankings (OVR is the overall ranking on the CBS big board from January 28th).
| OVR | Player | School | Height | Weight | Sacks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| 7 | Devon Still | Penn State | 6-4 | 310 | 10.5 | 32.5 | 40 | 1.08 |
| 12 | Quinton Coples | North Carolina | 6-6 | 285 | 24 | 40.5 | 50 | 1.29 |
| 13 | Michael Brockers | LSU | 6-5 | 306 | 2 | 11 | 27 | 0.48 |
| 25 | Fletcher Cox | Mississippi State | 6-4 | 295 | 7.5 | 22.5 | 35 | 0.86 |
| 48 | Jared Crick | Nebraska | 6-6 | 285 | 20 | 35 | 42 | 1.31 |
| 58 | Billy Winn | Boise State | 6-3 | 296 | 15.5 | 36.5 | 52 | 1.00 |
| 77 | DaJohn Harris | Southern California | 6-3 | 308 | 5 | 14.5 | 43 | 0.45 |
| 95 | Kendall Reyes | Connecticut | 6-4 | 300 | 11.5 | 32.5 | 49 | 0.90 |
| 101 | Trevor Guyton | California | 6-3 | 280 | 12 | 25 | 41 | 0.90 |
| 103 | Kheeston Randall | Texas | 6-5 | 297 | 5 | 21.5 | 46 | 0.58 |
| 197 | Derek Wolfe | Cincinnati | 6-5 | 286 | 19.5 | 37 | 45 | 1.26 |
| 295 | Taylor Thompson | S.M.U. | 6-6 | 287 | 18 | 22.5 | 50 | 0.81 |
| 322 | Matt Conrath | Virginia | 6-7 | 281 | 11.5 | 30.5 | 47 | 0.89 |
Compared to last year's class, this year's defensive linemen look far less promising. Only four players have a Production Ratio above 1.0. If we limit the data to only the last two college years, Quinton Coples (1.85), Derek Wolfe (1.64), Jared Crick (1.61) and to a lesser extent Devon Still (1.37) are the top four players who could perhaps provide a pass-rushing threat from the DE position for the Cowboys.
Outside of Quinton Coples, there are no immediate standouts in this year's draft class, and the overall numbers are quite low. If the Cowboys are looking to improve their pass rush, they are probably much better off looking for help at the outside linebacker spot, a position that looks good in this year's draft.
Then again, there is always the cautionary tale of Vernon Gholston, who notched 30.5 TFLs and 22.5 sacks in 34 games for a Production Ratio of 1.56 but never recorded a single sack in the NFL.
Nose Tackles
As I wrote earlier, the Production Ratio is not the best stat to evaluate potential nose tackles. But it's a short list of candidates, so here's the table:
| OVR | Player | School | Height | Weight | Sacks | TFL | Games | Production Ratio |
| 28 | Dontari Poe | Memphis | 6-5 | 350 | 5 | 21.5 | 35 | 0.76 |
| 49 | Josh Chapman | Alabama | 6-1 | 310 | 2.5 | 13.5 | 52 | 0.31 |
| 115 | Alameda Ta'amu | Washington | 6-3 | 341 | 7.5 | 16.5 | 50 | 0.48 |
| 142 | Hebron Fangupo | Brigham Young | 6-1 | 331 | 0 | 6.5 | 23 | 0.28 |
| 242 | Nicolas Jean-Baptiste | Baylor | 6-2 | 335 | 5 | 12.5 | 49 | 0.36 |
Dontari Poe is a very intriguing prospect. He has an absurdly high Production Ratio considering his size and position. Poe could be type of player that successfully anchors a 3-4 defense for years. But taking a nose tackle with the 14th pick may be more than the Cowboys are willing to invest.
As for the other NT candidates, while I understand the allure of shiny new things, not one of them is a better option for the Cowboys than the three players already on the roster who played NT this year.
0 recs | 186 comments
First!
I think jared crick is a very likely 2nd round target for the cowboys. Injured 1st round prospect? Sign jerruh up!
matt575 - January 30, 2012 via mobile
I wouldn't mind it...
Couples would be a great target too…Top ten Talent that falls due to “character concerns”?
I am Ironman!!! - January 30, 2012
agreed
Coples is my favorite prospect right now, that long athletic frame is just so enticing (no homo, that came off weird). Sure he slacked senior year to prevent injury, but I consider that a courtesy to jerry and the big robowski
matt575 - January 30, 2012 via mobile
+2
If Coples somehow falls out of the top 10, go get him.
If not, I’m warming to the idea of trying to sign Soliai as NT, slide RatlIff to DE, then draft an OLB and a FS and 2 CBs to rebuild the D.
DB23 - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Ha ha
dunkman - January 30, 2012
Coples is NOT THAT GOOD
He’s decent but I don’t think he’s top 10 talent. Much like Upshaw, who is probably 2nd round talent.
These guys aren’t explosive enough. Yes, they are good players but neither of them remind me of Ware or Watt or Clay Matthews.
This year’s crop is meh in terms of DE and OLB. No Suhs or Warren Sapps to be had.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
Coples could very well be as good as Watt. Maybe even better.
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
I thought Coples was the best DL in the Senior Bowl
RenoCowboy - January 30, 2012
Also Unimpressed w/ This Year's Crop
The talent in the first round seems to be pretty skewed towards the offensive side of the ball this year. QBs, WRs, OTs, and OG/OC will make up over half the first round, imo. As far as defense, I see a lot of players with major holes in their game being touted as first rounders because of a lack of competition. Upshaw would’ve been a 2nd rounder last year. Devon Still would be competing with Liuget as the 4th best DT last year. Besides CB, I am very unimpressed with this draft’s defensive players (at least in the first round).
inwittenitrust - January 30, 2012
coples is a beast but i would think twice before snatching a player
with motor and on the field attitude questions, WKG
ratware - January 30, 2012
THIS IS THE CORRECT STANCE ON WKG
Think twice and do your due diligence. If you’re still low on the guy then so be it, but I think character concerns are just a red flag that needs to be investigated not an automatic disqualifier.
Omar Little - January 30, 2012
agree
ratware - January 31, 2012
what did you think about Ta'Amu in the 3rd round?
i don’t think he’s there at 115 but we have pick before then.
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
i think leadership is a huge quality over looked in 1st round picks.
you can’t keep risking character concerns for athletism. all these guys run hot & cold when things dont go there way. until Dez turns his potential into production then any red flags should scare off the Dallas Cowboys, Jerry Jones & Jason Garrett in the 1st round.
when the price is right then absolutely look at the risk/reward options but having a hot & cold motor is one risk i don’t care for on the first couple days of the draft lol.
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
Awesome!
So we should understand and expect him to slack-off once he signs his first NFL contract, with money in the bank. Of course we fully expect him to play lights-out once his contract year is up though.
Everyone should like those type of players.
Phillyboijr - January 30, 2012
Iowa's Adrian Clayborn
surprised me a bit; I thought he was overrated last year. On another note . . .
Why do 3-4 DEs have to be taught to play off the blockers in front of them? It seems to me that all defensive players (front seven) should be focused on attempting to wreak havoc in the backfield – at all costs.
Iowacowboy - January 30, 2012
well that is the Differance in a "2-gap" vs a "1-Gap" Scheme
in a “2-Gap” each D-lineman is Reponsible for, as the name suggests, two gaps. The idea is that, a DL “holds the Line” then sheds to make the Tackle.
vs a “1-Gap” which is what you are referring too. Each Lineman is responsible for, again name, “1-gap”. The idea is to Penetrate, thus causing disruption, for the QB/RB.
the issue is Finding Player capable of Both, as they require opposite skill sets,
Jay Ratlif-Great 1-Gap player but is Typically overwhelmed as a 2-Gap player
Marcus Spears-great 2-Gap player, but not quick enough to be consistent as a 1-gap.
The thing with Clayborn was his Lack of Strength, While he would have made an excellent 1-gap Player(a SS time of 4.13@280lbs, compare that to JJ Watt’s 4.21@ 290) He would be like Ratliff in that if you asked him to “2-Gap” his lack of strength(17 reps on the 225 bar vs 34 reps for Watt) would mean he would get Overwhelmed(ala Ratliff)
Personally I prefer the 1 gap technique, as it is more “aggressive” vs the 2-gap technique…
I am Ironman!!! - January 30, 2012
It is
but it requires better judgment and feel. I watched Dallas get killed a few times iin the run game when a DL penetrated a gap and the other team ran right past him.
dunkman - January 30, 2012
true it does have it disadvantages in the run game
However they can be mitigated if you have good ILB’s(which Dallas has in Sean lee and hopefully Carter).
I am Ironman!!! - January 30, 2012
Ironman
Ratliff just recently became overwhelmed playing NT. He used to be very good at 2 gap coverage (just a point that needed to be made).
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
yeah i always thought he was going to suck
ratware - January 30, 2012
you know
I kinda like the DT coming out of Iowa this year
nothing special, but looks like a solid player
Archie Barberio - January 30, 2012
Mike Daniels
I watched all of his game i believe he could be a very good 4-3 DT or a good pass rushing 3-4 end. Was a team captain and hardest worker on team, RKG get him in the 5th
Trueblue122 - January 30, 2012
sounds like a steal in the 5th if offers production in the passing game.
were going to start seeing the value of 3-4 or 4-3 DL that can get off blocks & are the RKG. the days of having certain packages for run down & pass downs doesnt work in the NFL & if you cant get pressure on the top 10 QBs in the NFL then your chances of winning seem few & far between.
with what the 49ers are doing with the 3-4 doesn’t set the standard then theres no reason to run it. what Wade did with the Texans defense is outstanding & to bad Jerry blew that card on a head coach when we could’ve caught him on the rebound from another team as a DC. i agree he was a horrible head coach the guy is one of the best defensive 3-4 playcallers when attacking the QB. i’m not sold on R.Ryan as the DC like i am on Garrett as HC & i hope Garrett keeps a close track with the type of players he might be leaving if things go south 2 years in a row lol.
if Dallas fails with R.Ryan then they don’t have many capable 3-4 playcallers just floating around on NFL rosters
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
the production ratio would be a lot more telling
if it were based on total number of plays instead of games played.
TheCowboyWay - January 30, 2012
If Poe is there in the second, take him. He is a beast that can clog up the lanes and has some ability to be used on 3rd downs too. Also like kendall reyes and taamu
nicholas.rodriguez - January 30, 2012 via mobile
I totally agree, if he is there in second.
We have Rat as our new DE. Draft OLB in first, then highest ranked OT in third. Spend rest of draft trying to hit on D prospects. Also, pick up C and 2 CBs in FA.
BlueNSilverBlood - January 30, 2012
be shame to miss out on the entire first 3 rounds of this years CB class though don’t you think?
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
I am a fan of FA CBs who have a proven history of health and production.
That first rounder could net us a very nice, almost surefire prospect. I do think that if we have a high level C signed in FA, that third rounder could def be used on CB or S, and we would be fine @ o-line with our current talent.
BlueNSilverBlood - January 30, 2012
those FA corners are very expensive that’s the rub, and why we should try and draft a good one that will be with us for 5 years on the cheap. I think we should draft a proven one as well. 2 FA CB’s is not in our budget.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
suppose to be ^^^ we should sign a proven one as well.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
Good point.
But I was thinking if we could get two, it would only take about 8-10 mil of our cap space, prob 4 mil for C, that leaves 6-10 mil this season for other signings, which, if we draft well, a couple holes could be filled.
But Jerry needs to jump when FA opens this year, no dawdling, so we will not know how the draft went.
BlueNSilverBlood - January 30, 2012
Maybe that was a little generous.
figure 10-12 mil this season for two decent corners.
BlueNSilverBlood - January 30, 2012
grimes, finnegan, carr, all these guys are gonna get 7mil+/year. These are the ‘good’ corners. ‘Decent’ corner costs about 4-5mil/yr.
Assuming we draft 3 starters(a BIG if) from: OLx2,DE,NT,CBx2,FS,ILB,OLB that still gonna leave 5-6 spots that could use upgrading thru free agency. Its not gonna happen THIS year. So we get pieces of the puzzle and move on to yr 2013 where we have a better chance of finishing the puzzle.
So I think it is unrealistic thinking we could afford 2 top flight corners in FA. But one along with a first day pick could get you where u need to be in ’13.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
We gotta keep in mind future expiring contracts as well.
I think Jenkins is in the last year of his rookie deal isn’t he? U wanna re-sign Jenkins for 7mil/year next offseason? I didn’t think so…
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
All good points.
Ultimately, we will probably draft a CB in 1st. We may go OLB/DE or maaaaaaybe OG. CB does make a lot of sense. And no, I would let Jenks go. if Jenkins is $7,000,000 worth of coverage, I’m afraid we’d have to buy about $10,000,000 worth ;)
I think you listed two too many holes, though. If we get a NT, then Lissy or Rat can feasibly fill a DE hole. If we get a high level C, we could probably role with our G depth.
We need another ILB, and I pray for S.
BlueNSilverBlood - January 31, 2012
this defense needs a strong safety
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
What I think is that we will carpet bomb the secondary in the draft.
Remember the post last year showing how the Boys tend to do that? I am expecting that for the secondary this year. 3ish CB’s and S’s drafted. We need 3 cb’s after all, and as you point out Jenkins is up off of his rookie contract next year.
Rena - January 31, 2012
the talent at CB is deep this season from the 2nd-7th rounds.
players like J.Hosley could be 3rd round prospects & that kids an instant starter in the slot. he should also be a good punt returner & give this team another way to score points or getting better field position,
i’d also love to get L.James in the 5th round to be the kick returner & Garrett could use him like the Saints use Sproles in space. James is a lot stronger then his size looks & if guys dont wrap him up he’s off to the races.
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
No love for Ta'amu?
He was really pushing the pocket back in the senior bowl. He has been inconsistent in college, but I would defiantly be willing to spend a 3rd on him considered CBS has him ranked in the 4th.
death of the cool - January 30, 2012
+1 on Ta"Amu in the 3rd
great prospect at NT
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
Ta'amu could anchor the middle
If they draft him in the 3rd and shift Ratliff outside I believe the DL is instantly upgraded.
CowboyWay - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Poe would be a huge upgrade over anything we have at nt.
Coples won’t fall to Dallas. SO who is the next option ? DO you trust Jerry to take the right guy ? History isn’t on our side. Dallas better hit with their first 3 picks. Meaning they need to draft 3 starters or the core guys will go ringless in Dallas.
This draft is huge. Dallas has such a dearth of talent it is absolutely imperative that this draft is a grand slam. If Dallas bombs in this draft it will cripple this team for years to come. It’s only been 2 years since the abomination that was the 09 draft and look how it has hurt this team. Each phase of the defense needs a starter out of this draft.
football mensa - January 30, 2012
I don’t want a 300 lb guy who can’t rush the QB.
The Cowboys got to be able to rush the passer and shut down the WRs of other teams
We already got our no pass rush run defender in Spears.
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
I tend to agree with you.
I believe that big, run-stuffing nose tackles will be a thing of the past within the next three seasons. The game has progressed away from running the football, and therefore, stopping the run is not as critical as it once was. Neither New England nor New York rely on a strong running game.
Ratliff, and perhaps Lissemore, are the new nose tackle prototypes that will become popular in a few seasons. A nose tackle that can create pressure is more valuable than a nose tackle that can stop the run, and in my opinion, a pressure nose tackle will be even more valuable in the near future.
ScarletO - January 30, 2012
There is more than one way to apply pressure.
Yes, having a rabid defensive guy chasing you around the back field is great, but collapsing the pocket it good as well. Having a massive NT that can push the center back into the QB is very disruptive. This will prevent the QB from being able to step up in the pocket. This will hamper the QB’s ability to throw the ball deep . Also, often times when Ware is coming around the corner, the QB can step up into the pocket, avoid the sack, then throw the ball. But if the pocket is collapsed, well, then things become much harder for the QB.
Grimlock83 - January 30, 2012
+1 on
pushing that pocket on the better QBs cause tons of havoc when your OLBs are there to sack/pressure the QB off his mark. Eli isnt a top 5 QB but he’ll eat a defense up if you dont get him off his mark. this defense cant go blow for blow with the Giants & cross ya fingers the ILBs/Safety holds up against the Eagles in the middle
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
The Ravens made Haloti Ngata a top 12 pick in 2006
It’s paid off for their defense
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Not disagreeing
If you see Haloti Ngata in this year’s draft let me know.
Omar Little - January 30, 2012
Dontari Poe
a big 350 pd NT has a first rd grade he’s the highest rated NT/DT in the draft.
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Highest rated NT/DT in this year's draft =/= Haloti Ngata
He’s intriguing, but not every intriguing NT prospect is HoF bound like Ngata is.
Omar Little - January 30, 2012
Did I say the word he was HOF bound?
I brought him up because he fits Ngata’s body type. 6’4/6’5 350 pounds.
He’s the prototypical NT this defense has been missing. Jerry said he wants to model the defense after Baltimore, well, that defense has a big man in the middle collapsing the pocket up the middle.
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Never said that you did.
I agree he has the same type of body and he fills a need. Worthy of the 14th pick? I’m not sure, we’ll see.
Omar Little - January 30, 2012
i'd be happy with Poe or Ta'amu in the 3rd.
Ta’Amu just looks like a perfect fit at NT & getting him in the 3rd round would allow them the luxary of moving Ratliff full time. doesn’t Dallas get an extra 3rd?
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
Dontari Poe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0IaNI-3sw4
L_Dawg73 - February 7, 2012
Dontari Poe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0IaNI-3sw4
L_Dawg73 - February 7, 2012
If we don’t get Coples go for Jenkins at CB
I think everyone is forgetting how much the Cowboys need CBs
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
No one is forgetting the cb need.
Poe would collapse the pocket. That is something Rat can’t do. If we remain in a 3-4 we need someone to collapse the pocket to make the 3-4 work as it was designed.
Shoot you could put the best 15 players on a dart board. Throw the dart blindfolded. Whatever name the dart hits. Dallas could use that player. That’s how much we need talent.
football mensa - January 30, 2012
The Cowboys need CBs so bad that another team with Alex Barron at tackle could complete passes against the Cowboys secondary.
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
Now you've gone bonkers.
Nickthegrip - January 30, 2012
Based on these numbers I would say
Trade back. Get another 2nd1st and take Poe, one of either Massaquoi/Curry/Irvin, and Crick.
Cowick22 - January 30, 2012 via mobile
On board with you
Even have a partner to trade with – Pittsburgh…….we they need to find J Harrisons replacement, let them come up and get it
BigBad Joe - January 30, 2012
if we dropped in the first to around the mid 20-s the best we'd be able to pull out is a 3rd according to the draft calculator...
course that just a rough number and if someone were to offer us a 2nd to do it that wouldn’t be so bad….
TruBluToTheCore - January 30, 2012
24 and 56 for 14
has a 20 point diff, throw in a 6th if needed
or trade 14, 113, 144, 174
for
24 56 88
one less pick overall, but would have 5 picks in top 88
24
45
56
82
88
213
BigBad Joe - January 30, 2012
174 sb 175
BigBad Joe - January 30, 2012
wouldn't argue with those picks at all
TruBluToTheCore - January 30, 2012
and thats not even counting a compensatory that we would get...so end up with same number of picks we have now with a better cushion for getting what we need...
TruBluToTheCore - January 30, 2012
no way in hell does someone trade us 56 & 88 for a bunch of JAGS.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
just using the handy dandy draft value chart
and they would also be jumping 10 spots in the first
BigBad Joe - January 30, 2012
yeah I understand that’s what the chart says, but ask yourself…would you do it?
There’s good talent in rd’s 1-3 and you’re giving away both 2 & 3 for that jump. I just don’t see the upgrade for what it would cost you to move up.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
Depend on who is at 14 and how much i want them
BigBad Joe - January 30, 2012
maybe Pittsburgh wants Trent Richardson
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012
why, when they have Mendenhall would they need Richardson?
Sure he had a down year but is Richardson that much of an upgrade?
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
wasn't a serious comment
Alan Smithee - January 31, 2012
24
Might be the right place to take Jenkins if he lasts there.
Then in the 2nd you’re in ideal BPA situation, maybe Crick or Curry/Irvin(depending on what happens with Spencer), and you can spend of the rest of the draft ironing out depth at O-Line, secondary, etc.
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012
at 24 there should be a ton of options to pick from
Jenkins would be a steal but i’m not putting him on this roster to buddy up with Dez at the clubs. i’m sure Dallas/Jerry still have huge hope for Dez & with this team getting younger they need to replace them with leaders.
just dont see much reward for Jenkins or pot head Kirkpatrick in the 1st round when were still waiting for the rewards from Dez’s red flags. no thanks to the guy who ruined his draft stock for smoking pot lol. i mean sure i could see taking a chance if that happened his first year & turned himself around the next but Kirkpatrick knew dang on well he couldn’t go through this process high on drugs.
everyone deserves a second chance for dumb things that dont involve others but theres no excuse for ignorance. you can forgive ignorance & expect it to get better doesn’t happen & wont ever happen.
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
Stupid dumb phone don’t know why it added that “1st” in there.
Cowick22 - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Expanding my picks further what would yall think of
1, Poe NT
2, Massaquoi/Curry/Irvin
2b, Crick DE
3, Leonard Johnson CB
4, Josh Norman CB
5 Donte Page Moss or Aaron Henry S
6, traded away as part of move down
7, Evan Rodriguez FB/ TE
THOUGHTS? Is this even realistic? I was just sort of riffing together a mock off the top of the old noggin.
Cowick22 - January 30, 2012 via mobile
O-line and secondary
Frankly, I have a hard time justifying not taking a corner in the first two rounds. Especially since I’m not overwhelmed by the free agent class this year.
Then, if you’re putting yourself in the position of having to sign a starting corner(since expecting Johnson or Norman to start right away seems foolish), what else are you realistically going to be able to do in free agency? Does it take you out of the running for Carl Nicks, by far my first choice of FA target? Compounding this, if you don’t get Nicks, and you don’t take a decent O-Line prospect in the draft, you are rolling the dice on a unit that, in my view, played better than expected last year(a scary thought), and could be due for major regression.
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012
I think he is taking advantage of the depth a CB at 3 and 4
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
Maybe
Depth means you might find a strong developmental player at that position in later rounds, but does it mean one of those guys can step in and start next year?
And if you aren’t taking a corner until the 4th pick, I think you have to add someone on the O-Line in the first three. Otherwise you are just forcing yourself to fill too many big holes through free agency. A journeyman here and a journeyman there to patch up key weaknesses is a major role of the dice.
Alan Smithee - January 31, 2012
I wasnt really trying to get into free agency
But I would really like Chris Meyers the C from HOU, Terrell Thomas cb from ny, Tyvon Branch SS from OAK, and Cliff Avril from DET. Do I expect all these signings? No but these would be my first choice in FA. Also I believe the team is reallypretty going to let Scandrick have a “prove it” year as an outside but cb in 2012
Cowick22 - January 30, 2012 via mobile
i like the Meyers at Center in FA.
i also fully expect Scandrick to compete for the #2 CB & Dallas really needs to focus on replacing the slot CB in a best case scenerio (j.Hosley 2nd/3rd rounds, Josh Norman in the 4th & actually theres a bunch of CBs in that 2nd-5th round range that could instantly play the slot & possibly draft a gem that challeges for the starting job.
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
That's too heavy on D.
We still need to infuse some talent into the OLine on the Offensive side.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
Great post as usual. A little off topic if you'll permit.
I went back and looked at the dta in your post regarding OLB’s (http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2012/1/20/2720486/finding-playmaking-outside-linebackers-in-the-2012-draft-ingram). I noticed that Donte Paige-Moss was not included.
Donte is a true junior that declared for the draft and then had ACL reconstrucitve surgery the first week of January. He will likely miss most of the 2012 NFL season and be placed on the PUP list for which ever team drafts him. Paige-Moss will likely be selected on the third day of the draft, and as 6-4, 260 pound 4-3 DE at the University of North Carolina, could either play a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 OLB (likely strong side).
There are concerns regarding his character much in the same way as there are with Quinton Coples: questionable motor. These “character concerns” are likely the product of the last minute coaching change that occurred with the Tar Heels last season. It is odd that both players have the same concern going into what turned out to be their final season at North Carolina.
Considering how all reports note how well Coples performed during the Senior Bowl practices, absorbed the instruction from NFL coaches, and performed, this may be a case where neither Coples nor Paige-Moss were coached-up last season. Both prospects entered the season as top 20 college prospects: Coples was only behind Luck in many preseason lists.
I went back and looked at the Production Ratio for Paige-Moss his Freshman and Sophomore years, and it was an impressive 1.07. His Sophomore season alone was a 1.58. Making that number all the more impressive was that it occurred in only his second year at North Carolina.
I suspect that Coples also had a slip in production his final season at UNC. If so, perhaps these two players are being dramatically undervalued due to circumstances beyond their control: the change from a proven coach in Butch Davis, to the interim coach just before the beginning of the season.
In addition, do not forget that selecting an injured Donte Paige-Moss in the 5th round (or so) is very much something the Cowboys could consider. As far as the character concerns, Butch Davis put those to rest with Bruce Carter, and can conveniently do so with both Coples and Paige-Moss. My understanding is that Paige-Moss is actually a really good kid that made a bad decision with social media (like that has never happened and is such a serious offense) and that both players were smart enough to not be involved in the tutor scandal that rocked UNC last season.
ScarletO - January 30, 2012
The character issues were stemming alot from
the fact that he got beat out of his position, and had sour grapes about it, I believe. And that was prior to any injury.
TheCowboyWay - January 30, 2012
DPM is a 4th round pick for the Boys
he actually may be a 3rd round pick for other teams that have the luxury of less needs but the Boys need to be able to rely on players who can PLAY next year and who are proven to be RKG. Injured WKG are too risky for the needs the team has now.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
Excellent post OCC
I like the theory that pass rush may have to come from OLB. Makes sense.
dunkman - January 30, 2012
Justin Smith is NOT an OLB
Neither is JJ Watt. Why does this OLB rushes the passer only mentality prevail?
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
I think..
he means that, based on the production ratio, our best bet in this draft would be to upgrade at OLB and not DE. Not that DE can’t produce pressure in general, but these guys in particular at DE don’t appear to provide much.
BigDumbFace - January 30, 2012
We have an OLB who's adequate
He just needs to be resigned.
Honestly, who’s better – Spencer or Spears? Spencer or Lissemor?. Spencer or Hatcher?
Spencer may not be Ware (who I can’t understand why everyone expects him to be) but he’s 1st among SOLBs in pressures and 5th in sacks. Comparing like positions – he’s fairly good.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
My only point is
Dallas has a few directions it can go to upgrade the pass rush. If DL doesn’t offer the draft opportunities with the right skills, then they may be forced to look at OLB. I’m not evaluating any particular player when I say that.
dunkman - January 30, 2012
screw adequate
had enough of that BS
burmafrd1944 - January 30, 2012
I'm not convinced ANY of the
available OLBs available would be appreciably better than Spencer. Right now, the prospects are averaging the same # of sacks that Spencer touted when he was in college. This draft has no Ware or Matthews or Suggs or Harrison. The OLB prospects are decent.
Now, with respect to DE, Coples, I feel would be as adequate as Spears vs. the run + be able to give better pass rush. But, that’s IF the guy wants to play, is happy w/ his contract, isn’t POd by anyone in the media,etc. Coples is a risk – especially at pick 14 overall.
I do think Crick or Winn or Reyes would be just as adequate as Coples if they can be picked in the 2nd round.
Dallas fans seem to not understand the 3-4 defense. DEs are supposed to occupy both the OG and T to allow the OLBs to be either blocked by a single T or better yet an RB. If Dallas had DEs that could command double teams regularly, the average Spencer probably would appear to be better than average.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
Jason Jones is an non Coples option at DE.
Reyes / Crick /Wynn are a not the same as Coples.
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
Reyes / Crick /Wynn and while they might be better than what we have at DE they might not be a whole lot better.
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
I don't get this.
If we surrounded Spencer with great pass rushers, would he appear to be better? Sure. However, it’s not like we all watch Spencer get double teamed all the time cause our ends aren’t disruptive. The guy doesn’t win his one-on-ones and there isn’t anything that should give us reason to think that should change.
Look, I don’t hate Spencer. I think it sucks that we got a player that can do all the things he does well but not what we really, really need him to do. We just barely missed.
BigDumbFace - January 30, 2012 via iPhone app
What is your thought process based on?
Gut feeling? other people’s posts?
Again, the guy led the entire NFL from his position in QB pressures and was 5th in sacks. He was also 1st in forced fumbles from his position (remember the Wash game and the crucial FF he cause on Grossman in the 4th).
How is it everyone is so quick to completely dismiss / forget when he DOES make plays and highlight that he’s not this exception, superstar, elite OLB. He’s NOT an elite OLB. He probably never will be. But for what he’s asked to do (drop back in coverage, defend vs. the run, rush the passer every so often, etc.), he’s among the BEST in the league at that.
It boggles my mind why Spencer remains to be the ONLY reason for fan displeasure about the lack of pass rush other than Ware when there are 3 other positions (RDE, NT and LDE) that are also supposed to do the same.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
I agree that we also need to upgrade at DE.
I’m not one of those that thinks that Spencer is the ONLY problem with our pass rush. That would boggle my mind as well. Dallas needs a few more 260+ lbs guys that can get after the QB, regardless of their position.
Spencer, though, has had plenty of opportunities to do more as a rusher and he hasn’t done enough, in my opinion. I expect the team to keep Spencer because of the other skills that you mention, ones that I Do appreciate, just not to the extent that you do, I suppose. He’ll probably finish in the 4-6 sack range again.
Not all pressures are created equal, no?
BigDumbFace - January 30, 2012
How much is enough?
Spencer has average 5.75 sacks the past 3 years.
He averages 2 force fumbles a year (had 4 this past year which was 4th in the league).
He is one of the best run stopping LBs on the team.
Overall, he is one of the top LOLBs in the league.
Again, overall, he is one of the top LOLBs in the league.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
Clearly, we disagree on this. Just barely though, I think.
I guess what it is coming down to is this:
What would be better for the team, a LB that can do the dirty work in the run game as well as here and there as a coverage guy but doesn’t really threaten the opposition a great deal in the passing game OR a LB that can really get after the QB but is less than stellar against the run or in coverage?
I may be wrong, but I want to see a LOLB that can get more like a minimum of 8 sacks a year.
BigDumbFace - January 30, 2012
I see your point
I would much rather have the former OLB mentioned coupled with a LDE (playing in front of that OLB) that can get into the backfield and apply pressure / make sacks.
The problem is not Spencer. It is Spears, Hatcher and Lissemore.
Plug Calais Campbell or Justin Smith or JJ Watt in front of Spencer and what do you have?
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
for me
TJ hits it on the nose here:
I think the answer is Spencer for all three. Does anyone disagree?
Do we “really, really need him” to rush the passer, if the team can find replacements at inferior positions who can? Skill sets on a team are usually more fluid than that.
Is Mark Cuban going to go replace Dirk Nowitzki because he doesn’t block a lot of shots or grab loads of rebounds? No, they’ll just make sure they get a center who can do those things to pair with him. Obviously, Spencer isn’t Dirk Nowitzki, but the same approach follows. If you already have a guy that can get the job done, why get rid of him because he doesn’t meet arbitrary criteria?
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012
Spencer might be the answer for all 3.
How much different are Spencer and Spears really? Couldn’t you describe them both as good against the run but lacking in the pass rush department?
Your Dirk argument doesn’t quite work, I don’t think. If we classified Spencer and the other DE’s as quality run stoppers, then either would be a nice pairing with a pass rusher at the other position. Right?
BigDumbFace - January 30, 2012
Yes very true concerning the DE vs. Pass rusher argument
but Spencer IS better than any of the DEs we have. Logic would prevail that you don’t keep the underachieving (less talented) DEs and replace the OLB – especially when there aren’t any appreciably better OLBs to do so.
But, there are better DEs…
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
I liked your reply to my post on Spencer.
I did not want to disrupt the conversation, however, so I am happy to see it continue here. I also agree that there is an absence of game-changing 3-4 OLB candidates in this draft. None that are worth taking in the first round due to the fact that they are not upgrades over Spencer.
Next year’s crop of OLB’s will be quite good. But we are talking about the 2012 NFL draft.
The more I looked into the teams that were able to apply disruptive pressure, the more I started to like the idea of significantly upgrading the DE positions. There is no guarantee that Ratliff will be disruptive as a 5-technique, but even if he is, the Cowboys are short one more pressure 3-4 defensive end. The better 3-4 defensive teams have two quality DE’s producing pressure.
ScarletO - January 30, 2012
We are in agreement, definately
The reason why I like Rat to LDE is because of the options it presents. Big, space occupying NTs can be had in the 3rd round – in fact, Josh Brent just might be adequate. Since you’re already paying Rat DE money anyway, let’s see if he can move there and utilize his quickness vs. bigger/slower tackles.
If the project doesn’t work out, just move Rat back to NT and all the team has done is wasted a 3rd round pick on a back up NT.
But if the Boys went after Coples or Still, no matter how good they are, the team still has an aging and undersized NT.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
Re
I think Spencer is significantly better than Spears. He is also an every down player, unlike Spears.
Spencer did have six sacks. As the “grading the pass rush” post detailed, the production for dallas’ top pass rushers was fine; the rest of the line was lagging behind.
Spears is a guy much more valuable on a team 10 years ago, when running was more critical to offensive attack.
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012 via mobile
The key point for me is the "pressures" Spencer gets.
If TJ is correct that Spencer was 1st among SOLBs in pressures(hence the Almost Anthony moniker), doesn’t it fall to the interior guys to finish a lot of those off when Spencer(or Ware) force the QB to step up into the pocket.
That is my area of concern-the 3 guys inside getting some kind of push.
randyd - January 30, 2012
or the secondary to create more coverage sacks
Alan Smithee - January 31, 2012
That might be good enough.
DE is a bigger problem.
CB is a bigger problem
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
Yeah no adequate players!!!
I’m sure Giants fans are equally frustrated with adequate players like Corey Webster and Aaron Ross, who aren’t as good as Spencer, mind you.
Omar Little - January 30, 2012
Amen
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
Spencer's far from the biggest problem on the defense
Newman, Brooking/Bradie, and Elam were all worse players.
Omar Little - January 30, 2012
those guys happen to play in the secondary which doesn't hurt as bad like upfront
LineBackers & NT are the most important positions on a 3-4. all the OLBs need to better then just average pass rushers & those guys get harder to find after the 2nd round.
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
Ingram & Hatcher > Spencer & Hatcher
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
That is exactly what I meant.
Thanks Eli
dunkman - January 30, 2012
haha
I guess I’m going to have to get used to being called Eli.
BigDumbFace - January 30, 2012
Glad you got the humor!
dunkman - January 30, 2012
BTW, not to threadjack, but that was the lamest ProBowl ever. Like a walk-through. WTF?
dunkman - January 30, 2012
I saw the 1st 5 mins
Changed the channel, I couldn’t take it.
Antonio S - January 30, 2012
Yeah it was a joke.
I turned it to “The Last Airbender” and found it way more entertaining….
dunkman - January 30, 2012
that movie blows lol
I’m like how is Slumdog Millionaire (awesome movie by the way) a superhero now?
Archie Barberio - January 30, 2012
nice
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
And yet it was better than the Pro Bowl....
dunkman - January 30, 2012
same here
Archie Barberio - January 30, 2012
Whatever!
That was fun, and after Cam and the youngsters came in, (there was a grip of rookies and first time Pro-Bowlers this year,) they actually got competitive. Plus watching Fitz and Marshall go off is always nice when Cowboys not involved.
BlueNSilverBlood - January 30, 2012
I'm glad you got some enjoyment
I just couldn’t stand the half-stepping. They hit harder in curling…
dunkman - January 30, 2012
oh i didnt know they hit in the pro bowl
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
Ok, great post
Which leads to some thinking along with respect to direction for the Boys to go:
Option A: Re-sign Spencer and draft an OLB in the 3rd or later rounds and with the 1st 2 picks, go after a pash rushing DE (or NT and move Rat to LDE) and CB or O line help
Option B: Don’t resign Spencer but sign Nicks and draft an OLB and DE w/ the 1st 2 picks
Option C: Don’t resign Spencer, don’t sign Nicks and go after DeCastro in the 1st, Crick (or equivalent DE) in the 2nd and OLB or CB in the 3rd
Option D: Resign Spencer AND sign Nicks, draft CB, OLB and DE w/ the 1st 3 picks
Although I’m a fan of option C, it will take longer for the Boys to become a serious contending team. But, I truly feel as if you try and correct ALL the errors the team has in 1 year (like in Option D), it’ becomes to expensive to maintain 4-6 years from now as those expensive FAs aren’t producing anywhere near the amount of $ they’re earning.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
Option D) why would u need to draft OLB if you are re-signing Spencer? …we still have Butler & Albright.
Beyond Coples it doesn’t appear that our DE rushing problems will be solved in this draft.
Sign a Free Agent G/C and a CB then draft BPA. Its not all going to get fixed THIS offseason.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
then lets force the issue and get Coples
It would be worth it cause we keep Spence around and he would “appear to be pretty good” if got Coples
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
if he falls to us sure, why not. DeCastro or Coples would be a tough choice for the FO I do believe.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
What makes more sense
Draft Coples and pay his 1st round money to play next to the most expensive D lineman we have (Ratliff)
OR
Move Rat to LDE and draft a true widebody NT to back up Josh Brent w/ a 3rd round pick?
If the project to move Rat to DE doesn’t work, you can always move him back. All the team has spent is a 3rd round pick. But, if you draft Coples and he sucks, you’re stuck w/ him (much like the Carpenter situation) for the next 3-5 years. And you wasted yet another 1st round pick – a pick that could have gone to upgrade other positions (CB, O line, etc.).
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
But Coples is supposedly a rare talent.
You take that chance if a rare talent falls to you over trading back and gambling on a lesser known talent later in the round. We can’t draft enough rushers, Coples > Hatcher.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
Where'd you hear that
rare talent – I have not heard.
Only elite prospects I’ve heard of are Luck, Claiborne and DeCastro.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
If our pass rushing needs from DE aren’t going to get solved through this draft then we should make it our priority to keep Romo upright by giving him an elite line.
It’s the most realistic outcome from whats available thru free agency and in the draft.
Strong G/C FA & Draft class (we need at least 2)
Strong CB FA & Draft class (we need at least 2)
Strong LB Draft class (we need at least 1)
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
OCC
Marcus Spears had 19 career sacks at LSU, you’ve got the columns mixed up for the Cowboys players. Where it should say sacls, ir says TFL, and where it should say TFL, it says sacks.
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
thanks for spotting that.
One.Cool.Customer - January 30, 2012
Great post as usual
One small quibble: I thought the most interesting part of the “playing OLB” post from a week ago was listing the 2-year Production Ratio for the college prospects. Maybe we could get a table for the DL prospects, also?
I’d be really curious to see how last year’s draft class compared to this year’s class by the 2-year ratio. For what it’s worth:
Jared Crick sophomore-junior seasons
19 sacks, 32 TFL, 28 games = 1.82 ratio
I’m guessing he won’t be able to participate in the combine, but he seems like a potential 2-3rd round steal.
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012
Crick had a knee injury this year
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
I am aware
I’m curious to see how Crick’s soph/junior years stacked up against the last two seasons for the other prospects, from the past two drafts.
Just eyeballing it, absent the requisite legwork mind you, it looks like Watt’s PR would be miles ahead of the rest of this year’s DL prospects, and would have put him in the upper echelon of last year’s, as well.
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012
yup
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
err I meant Crick, not Watt
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012
Didn't he tear his Pectoral as well ?
Trueblue122 - January 30, 2012
I actually looked at that, and it didn’t look all that great either, which is why I added this sentence:
One.Cool.Customer - January 30, 2012
ha, sorry
I totally missed that, my bad.
Now, Quinton Coples and Crick(taking his sophomore/junior seasons) had PR’s almost identical to J.J Watt’s, with both also being well ahead of Clayborn, so why exactly are we definitively labeling this class inferior?
Alan Smithee - January 30, 2012
Depth, that’s why this class is inferior. Last year’s class had 13 defensive linemen with a production ratio greater than 1.0, this year’s class has 4.
One.Cool.Customer - January 30, 2012
wow definitely none of these guys look like 1st round picks
even were we picking around 20
AustonianAggie - January 30, 2012
Let's make sure we don't UNDERvalue the 14th pick overall
If there isn’t a propspect available who Dallas thinks can step in, play and BE BETTER than whoever is playing the position currently, then they shouldn’t pick that prospect. The 14th overall pick should be an immediate starter level type talent – if the draft doesn’t have 14 players in it that could crack the Boys starting lineup, then they should trade down (or get a 1st round in NEXT years draft).
Whatever they do, they should NOT draft someone because he happens to be decent/average and might help out 2-3 years from now…
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
Michael Brockers
over 20 games played, 2 sacks, 11 tackles for loss. Production Ratio of 0.48. Who advised this guy to come out 2 YEARS early? Has to be some agent.
This is why I was saying the past three weeks, he made a big mistake; Les Miles told him he should’ve come back to improve his stock; the scouts he spoke with said he’s not a lock to go in the first rd.
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
love to get him in round 2
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
I want talented players who produce not projects
We need to get our first three picks right. I don’t want a developmental project who skipped his last two seasons of college just for a quick money grab.
He sounds like a guy who people will do a where are they now piece 3-4 years after the draft.
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
A lot of people on here were saying the same thing about Tyron Smith
RenoCowboy - January 30, 2012
I initially was one of those guys not sure about Tyron Smith.
Mostly because I barely watched U$C living in the Bay Area last year, by draft day I was fine with it.
However, I’ve seen LSU play, and I’ve seen their DL busts like Spears, Jackson, and Glenn, who by the way had very productive careers at LSU. I don’t want any part of Brockers.
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
you also have to factor they have 3 or 4 DL that get drafted high every year
LSU produces a lot of players on the DL so the potential for Jags or bust is greater. Brockers is Brockers & not Spears or Glenn so its not fair to judge him off past scrubs.
i’m not a fan of Brockers in the 1st round but certianley would deserve consideration for him on the 2nd round
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
In the second he is just too good to pass up.
I think he is too risky to take in the first.
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
if Brokers fell to us in round 2 that would just be awesome.
The guy could be considerably better than Crick or Wynn.
That would be fate if he fell to us.
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
Crick should be healthy by combine/draft time
All I know is, the guy (Crick) actually put up numbers when healthy.
Mr Brockers in 20+ games could only muster 2 sacks and 11 tackles for loss, there’s nothing special about a guy who never put it together. What makes you think he’ll suddenly figure it out once paychecks come in?
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
It's tough to predict who will be available in round two
I assume that Luck, RGIII, Kalil, Reiff, Claiborne, Martin, DeCastro, Coples, Blackmon, Richardson, Floyd?, Jeffrey?, Wright? will be drafted. If not, only the QBs, OLmen, Claiborne and Coples are worth consideration.
Assuming none of the above are available our viable options at # 14 are Ingram, Upshaw, Perry, Still, Jenkins, and Dre. All are the most likely options left. To me the most versatile is Ingram. I like Perry’s upside and Upshaw’s ability. Still is the best interior DL in a weak group. Jenkins has best skill set of the remaining DBs And Dre is just plain stupid.
Ingram would be my choice then at #14.
pfloyd1 - January 30, 2012
In the Senior Bowl
I thought Ingram was lousy. I am not sure who the OT was that was blocking him, but he sure had Ingram bottled up everytime they were within the camera view.
RenoCowboy - January 30, 2012
I got this gut feeling that J. Jenkins is gonna be the pick...and I don't know why
Trueblue122 - January 30, 2012
Hopefully with a trade down
I got a feeling DeCastro is gonna be gone by the time we pick. KC and ARI could both use a Guard.
CaliCowboysFan92 - January 30, 2012
I like the idea of having two corners both named Jenkins. Mike could wear 21, Janoris could wear 12 and confuse all those opponents with “learning disabilities” (to stay politically correct with my terminology).
One.Cool.Customer - January 30, 2012
would that even be legal?
I am Ironman!!! - January 30, 2012
LOL
no, CBs have to wear a # 20 or above.
theoretically, they could list Janoris as a WR and put a 12 on him then just play him at CB.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
if they dont trade down before drafting Jenkins then Jerry blindly thinks this teams better then it is.
Dez & Jenkins doesn’t smell good imo
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
somebody is gonna rise and somebody is gonna fall.
Happens every year. I think you are right about DeCastro now though. But there will be someone who’s good and fills a need for us there @ #14. The question is will they justify picking them there at 14 or should we trade back and still get them along with an additional 3rd.
I have NO faith that Jerry can successfully accomplish this tactic.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
The flipside of that coin ...
is Jerry ‘needs’ a willing partner; one that calls us, itching to trade up. That takes the onus off of us and reduces the chance of us getting poor value in the exchange. We can’t trade in a vacuum.
GalTex - January 31, 2012
Here's what I get from OCCs post
How many pass rushing prospects along the D line should garner being picked 14th overall in the 2012 NFL draft?
Still – probably but not likely to be availabe at 14 and a trade up would be necessary. Given that, he’s not worth the cost. Coples – yeah, perhaps. Brokers – not a pass rusher.
Ok, so if the #14 overall isn’t used for DE/NT help, then perhaps they draft an some other position at 14 and wait for DE/NT in the 2nd round (or trade down from 14). Crick, Winn or possibly Reyes in the 3rd – sound like reasonable possibilities. Crick has been injured but was thought to have 1st round talent. Winn is from smaller school but showed up big in playing vs. credible opponents. Reyes is further risky.
But overall, I feel OCC is right on the money. Dallas should be targeting DEFENSIVE LINE for help w/ pass rush instead of assuming OLBs are the only ones who should be rushing the passer.
Hats off to you OCC.
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
DE/NT = DENT
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
If you get DE help Anthony Spencer would "appear to be " much better.
Jonathan Stern - January 30, 2012
the goal of this draft should be to get better players
Not make our friend Anthony Spencer look good. That’s a recipe for disaster, as teams will see right through this after a few games, and decide to scheme the other guy out of the game, and therefore force Inadequate Anthony to beat his man one on one, whicb he’s proven he can’t consistently do, as evidenced by his 17 sacks since 2009.
Rohpuri - January 30, 2012 via mobile
17 sacks since 2009
is 6 sacks a year. How is that inadequate?
Tyrone Jenkins - January 30, 2012
yeah after watching the Texans & 49ers it become obvious DE/NT pass rushers were valuable pieces
with offenses running 2 TE sets where they can run or pass in the same personnel it forces defenses to play the same way. teams like the Saints, Packers, Eagles with so many weapons theres no way cover all them up so it’s even more pressure to get the QB off his mark.
having a NT that can push the pocket seems like a need along with Spencers replacement.
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
I was not a Coples fan before the Senior Bowl
Now, he is my choice for that #14 pick if he is available. I thought he was the best DL at getting into the backfield of anyone on either team. Ingram had a terrible time. I don’t know who the OT was who was blocking Ingram, but he was either great, or Ingram is not anywhere ready for the NFL.
RenoCowboy - January 30, 2012
I believe that was Cordy Glenn...
Who would be a great fit for us but only in a trade down scenario.
StarloverinWNC - January 30, 2012
I Don't See Massaquoi Listed There
What are HIS numbers?
Howleyesque - January 30, 2012
He is in the OLB post that is ref before
BigBad Joe - January 30, 2012
Gholston
Has 42 tackles in his nfl career…
rawrrawr - January 30, 2012
That is correct. I meant to write ‘sacks’, and have corrected it accordingly.
One.Cool.Customer - January 31, 2012
Dontari Poe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0IaNI-3sw4
L_Dawg73 - February 7, 2012
How about this?
Move down in the 1st(say 22-26), doing so should net another 2nd. Cincy is at 22 and has the 17th as well(via Oakland), and could be a candidate. We could then go just about any direction(C,OG,DE,DT,CB,S,OLB). For arguments sake;
1st-Cordy Glenn/Peter Konz- We have both Holland and Kosier hurt and youngsters behind them. Not even mentioning that Costa is servicable at best.
2nd our pick-CB/DT- For arguments sake Minniefield or Poe.
2nd via trade-S-Barron or CB/OLB
3rd-S/CB-Iloka
4th-DE-Wolfe
5th-ILB Franklin
6th-OLB Wilbur
7th-DE-Conrath
7th-comp-Hicks small school Regina(6-5 324)
All of this assumes we resign Spencer and Robinson. Also assumes we Use Rat at DE at least some and that Brent/lissemore/Spears can play the NT position. This also is using CBS rankings in general.
faniva - February 12, 2012
OR, HOW ABOUT THIS.....
I’d like to draft Dontari Poe at NT but it’s still a crap shoot unless our Cowboys scouting department has grown some brains overnight on how to evaluate a potential NFL Nose Tackle. Poie does have the ideal weight/height ratio and we do have a GLARING NEED at NT that has led our secondary coverage (and Pass Rush) to become average since NFL QBs are simply stepping up into a clean pocket (especially during the month of December when our Pass Rush is wearing down)!!!! Not to mention that we haven’t been able to stop elite RB’s on 3rd and short or 1st and goal for a few years now!!!!
Option #1: How about this scenario (that I’ve been harping on for weeks now to save Jerrah’s millions in FA signings and to boost our Pass Rush and Run Defense)? Sign Free Agent Paul Soliani as our NT (proven Vet) and move RAT (who quick and cock strong) to DE on Spencer’s side (after resigning Spencer to a decent contract). At Pick #14, pick BPA (i.e. Coples, DeCastro, Janoris Jenkins, or Dre Kilpatrick). If signing NT Paul Soliani improves our Pass Rush and Run Defense, it may be ‘wiser’ to simply draft Janoris Jenkins (if Dre Kilpatrick or Coples is gone) to replace Terrance Newman. If Soliani does as expected, he should finally make ‘middle draws’ alot tougher now and he’ll push the pocket on passing downs whereby elite QB’s can no longer step up into a clean pocket. We should see more ‘strips, fumbles, and sacks’ by our Pass Rush and more interceptions by our secondary (while Jerrah saves MILLIONS and MILLONS by overpaying high-priced Free Agents Carl Nicks or Mario Williams or Calais Campbell).
Option #2: If we DO have salary cap flexibility and CAN AFFORD to sign both NT Paul Soliani and OG Carl Nicks as Free Agents, do it Jerrah. At Pick #14 in the NFL DRAFT, we draft either CB Janoris Jenkins or CB Dre Kilpatrick to add to our now pretty good Secondary. With an improved Rush Defense, Pass Rush, and Offensive Line, we’d draft RB Terrance Ganaway (6’1" & 241lbs) from Baylor who scored 21TDs and rushed for over 1,540yds this year!!! He’s a slightly smaller but faster version of Brandon Jacobs of the Giants. With Demarco and Terrance, we’d have our own version of Ahmad Bradshaw and Brandon Jacobs on Offense to give Jason Garrett MORE FLEXIBILITY in his Offensive Game Plans (i.e. play-action pass plays, 3rd and short, and 1st and Goal).
Summary: Yes, we’d all love to sign FA (DE) Mario Williams or (DE) Calais Campbell and(OG) Carl Nicks and (NT) Paul Soliani. Unfortunately, signing FA’s Mario Williams or Calais Campbell would ‘break the bank’ completely (if we could sign them at all). A more likely scenario would be either Option #1 (NT Paul Soliani) or Option #2 (NT Paul Soliani and OG Carl Nicks) and then drafting the BPA available at Pick #14. Of course, Jerrah would probably make the board FIT OUR NEED and they’d draft either OG DeCastro (if we didn’t sign Free Agent OG Carl Nicks and OG DeCastro is available) or he’d draft CB Jenoris Jenkins or Dre Kilpatrick (if we signed both FA’s Paul Soliani and Carl Nicks).
Option #2 is the best scenario and the Cowboys would go into the 2012 NFL Season with an improved OL (with massive Carl Nicks) , DL (with massive Paul Soliani and moving RAT to DE), Secondary (with best man-cover CB Janoris Jenkins) and Backfield (with RB Terrence Ganaway bringing the pain and speed)!!!!!!!!!!
Pacerman - February 13, 2012
i cant see Jenkins or Kirkpatrick with the 14th pick.
i also dont see Dallas paying Spencer more then some other team. Tampa or some team with a ton of cap probably be willing to roll the dice more then Jerrah imo.
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
didn't Spencer have his own character issues?
i thought he got in trouble & hasn’t been a role model for the RKG
DCNation73 - February 13, 2012
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